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In this episode, Phil Hill, Jeanette Wiseman, and Kevin Kelly discuss the latest CHLOE (Changing Landscape of Online Education) survey report put out by Quality Matters and Eduventures Research, based on responses from more than 300 online leaders at US colleges and universities.


  • Phil Hill
  • Jeanette Wiseman
  • Kevin Kelly


Phil: Hello, welcome to COVID Transitions. I’m Phil Hill, and I’m here with Kevin Kelly and Jeanette Wiseman. We’re talking about the CHLOE report, the fifth one that’s coming out on Monday when will publish publishes podcast.That’s the Changing Landscape of Online Education (CHLOE) that is put out by Eduventures and Quality Matters. There’s a lot of interesting insight in this survey that I thought it was worth us discussing.

In particular, to me, this survey provides the most usable context of any, except for maybe the Tyton Partners – Every Learner Everywhere is the other one I would put in this category where there’s useful context behind the survey that could be actionable by schools. What I mean by that is they don’t just go with the simple narrative of everybody’s going to Zoom. Students don’t like online this. They actually [00:01:00] provide a lot of context about what percentage of faculty and students have never had an online course in the past? And how does that affect this?

What are the multiple tools that are being used? Almost all the data is broken out by two year public community colleges versus four year in private. To me, it just has some of the most useful context of any of the surveys out there, say, the Tyton Partners. I would put that in the same category. I think it’d be useful for us to discuss this. I guess I’ve already shared my lead. This has context and this is a very usable survey and we’ve got a ton out there. So we’re starting to get into the point of, well, what can you do with these? Let me get your initial reactions. How how usable and what was your impression of the overall survey report, Jeanette?

Jeanette: Well, first, I think we need to point out who was [00:02:00] surveyed, because I think that makes an important distinction for this one, because it’s a little bit different than we’re getting students or faculty survey, For this report, which is a little bit further. Not as many as they usually do. What I’m reading is they mostly survey chief online officers for this report, for the survey. This time they only did three hundred and eight, although they did break it down across the different types of institutions that you listed.I will admit I’m getting a little bit of survey fatigue, and I shouldn’t be, since you guys are really doing more of the reporting on that, especially you, Kevin. I thought it was really interesting. I also think important to read the report because I think there’s some insight there that’s not just part of the numbers, but they call out some really important distinctions, which I think some people aren’t doing. I agree with you that it’s an important one. I think there is a lot of insight. I think between the lines sometimes [00:03:00] in this report is even more important than the actual numbers.

Phil: So basically, I failed to provide the context of who was even surveyed in this. But thank you, Kevin. What was your impression?

Kevin: Well, if Jeanette hadn’t brought it up, I would have, because I thought that was a key factor, especially when you’re looking at charts about faculty and students feelings about online teaching and learning. It’s the chief online officers feelings of how faculty and students are feeling. Let’s just call this second hand information for some of these responses. With that in mind, I still think you have a good point, Phil, that it’s got some good background information. These officers probably do have access to the statistics in the student information system and elsewhere of who hadn’t taken courses online before and who had taught online courses before covered hit. There are some interesting data and I’m really happy that they paid attention to the plight of adjuncts [00:04:00] and other groups that typically don’t have this much attention.

Phil: So one way to look at this then, is that we need to have a little bit of caution reading this report where it gets into purely impressions, particularly second hand. If there’s implications of what students or faculty thought, we need to be aware that this is certainly second hand and not as quantifiable, whereas other things such as which tools are you using and how many courses did you convert? Those should have a much higher reliability.

Jeanette: Right. That’s why I mentioned I think reading the report, not just looking at the data was important, because I think that when I read, how successful was your transition to online for your students? I’m like, well, why are we asking these people? I think that’s my first impression. When you read the actual report, they recognize that that’s a bias that they’re having. They also say, this is [00:05:00] the subjective question of the nature of this question, what we’re saying is these students we did put these courses online, we did get through the spring on them and they were able to complete their classes. That was the level of success for them. It wasn’t how much do they enjoy being online? It wasn’t how much did they learn online? It was that they completed their course online.

Kevin: Was it possible for them to complete their course? They didn’t actually talk about how many students actually completed the courses. I think they made a reference to what they called DFW Iron, dropped, fail, withdrawal, incomplete rates. I know for a fact, as an online teacher myself, that even as hard as I tried in a class started the semester online, I still had around 15 to 20 percent of my students not finish. ‘m guessing that the measure of success for chief online officers was did they provide [00:06:00] the opportunity for students to complete their courses?

Phil: I hope that when the media coverage comes out of around this report and we need to look to ourselves and what we write on the blog, but I’m a little bit worried that there might be a lead of online officers. Oh, they think everything was peachy keen. Then you compare it to an online survey of students and they’re saying we weren’t happy. In the report, they’re very explicit. Our goal of a successful transition, as you’ve mentioned, Janette, was quote, did they have the opportunity? So I hope that doesn’t get buried in the reporting as well.

Kevin: Well, I think there was one through line. If you look at student surveys, the other faculty surveys, like Every Learner Everywhere and even some of the institution specific surveys like University of Pittsburgh or George Washington University or even Penn State, but they all came away with the feeling that we need to improve student [00:07:00] engagement in these online courses that chief online officers felt that way. The 4000 faculty from 15 hundred institutions for Every Learner Everywhere felt that way. It just goes down the road. Everybody agrees on that.

Phil: This report, what it provides is — and I thought that the wording was a little bit confusing, but I hope that people get it — it compared online versus remote, which we’ve talked about quite a bit. The point being remote is what happened this spring where half of the teachers were moving face to face and they’d never even taught online before. They’re calling that remote. Then they compare that to online courses that have already been designed and released as online courses at their institution. I think that was a very useful way to break down the data as long as people understand what they’re saying. Then that captures your point right there [00:08:00] about the engagement. This report really shows the difference in engagement.

The figure eight student engagement online study, which means the stuff that was happening before the pandemic versus remote study in the spring 2020. In this case, across the board, across all institutions types, these are online officers say it was far superior and online courses that had been supposedly thoughtfully designed ahead of time. It’s not just that engagement is a common thread, but in this report, it even says, let’s compare these two different situations and see what the difference is. Now, there is an impression here. It’s judge mental, if you will, not hard data. It is interesting to see that from the perspective of this audience.

Kevin: Well, the writers themselves, my favorite line in the whole report is so it should be no surprise that little attention [00:09:00] to faculty, student and student to student interaction characterized many remote courses. We had this statistic in previous CHLOE reports. Basically they’re acknowledging that faculty members in classroom situations often haven’t been trained how to teach. They’re not going to pay attention to the thing that people who are trained to teach online at least are made aware of the importance of student engagement. I think that’s going to be the takeaway. That is going to be the strongest. This is happy, optimistic, Kevin talking here. The number of instructors that have been exposed to pedagogical training as a result of COVID-19 is possibly going to change higher ed teaching and learning forever.

Phil: Yes, it’s a good point. Jeannette, are you positive or optimistic or pessimistic, Jeanette about this topic? About how [00:10:00] usable this is and how it points to the future,

Jeanette: How usable the survey is? I’m not sure. I think that there was components to it that I felt like need to be pulled out specifically around things like you said. There were more quantifiable, like the use of video conferencing. Seeing that, I mean, Zoom is  like the most used video conferencing tool. Which I think is somewhat fascinating, given that there are tools out there that have been created for education but are not being used. I thought that was interesting. I think they use of textbook or online courses and or the lack of use of those, especially in the case where here’s some instructional design. In most cases, instructional designed courses with content. Universities weren’t necessarily looking at them to use them online. I thought those things were really interesting to me. I do hope that there is now some more teacher training [00:11:00] and professor training in terms of how to conduct classes, both in-person and online that haven’t happened for a lot of disciplines. We don’t do that in higher education. I think it’s something that’s been needed for a long time. I think this hopefully will push a lot of instructors to look for that. I do want to make a point that I don’t think instructors in almost any case, there’s going to be these outliers. I think everyone wants to teach as well as they can. I think that push to online create a lot of self reflection, which is also a tenant of educational planning, is that you reflect on your teaching. I think that’s maybe the best thing that’s happened out of this, is that there’s been some self reflection on instruction and pedagogy that maybe wasn’t happening.

Phil: How do you guys take if you’re sort of getting into self reflection and moving forward? If you start looking at figure 10 and beyond, campus [00:12:00] faculty attitudes towards online learning after the pivot to remote teaching. This goes against a lot of the narrative that you see in coverage, which is the popular narrative is now that so many teachers have seen remote teaching, they’re even more against online in general. In figure 10, this shows at least the interpretation second hand is that faculty are very positive or somewhat positive in improving their attitude towards online learning after this. They have a better understanding of what’s involved and what’s possible. This gets back to the point of how much weight do we put to this type of finding? What it’s saying is it implies that this will improve online learning moving forward and more faculty are aware and have a more positive attitude about what can happen. How much weight do you put on this [00:13:00] type of finding particularly and figure 10 and then figure 11 gets into the student attitude.

Jeanette: These are CIOs and a lot of cases, these are executive level people at your university. These aren’t the faculty.

Phil: Well, I’d say they’re  executive level. I don’t think see, unless I miss that. I don’t think they’re primarily CEOs. It’s more online officers. Quite often that will be more on the academic technology side or an executive dean of online.

Kevin: For a community college, they may not have an academic technology unit. Especially if you look at the statistics, they said for the average number of FTE, for instructional designers was three. IF you looked at the community college, it the average was one, which we know from California Community College system. 60 percent of them don’t [00:14:00] have any Full-Time staff for instructional design. With your question about figures 10 and 11, we can take it as somebody on a campus in a leadership role has probably a decent understanding of how people feel. I don’t think it’s as representative as the faculty and students surveys themselves.

Jeanette: I agree. That’s that’s a question being answered by someone that wasn’t doing the teaching or not doing the learning. I think they maybe have a more positive spin. It’s a very subjective question and we don’t know that the feelings behind it necessarily, nor were the people experiencing it. I think it’s nice that they think that, but I don’t know if that’s really reflective.

Phil: Yeah, I’m more Goldilocks. I’m not all the way saying we should play the full opinion here. From what I’ve seen at a lot of schools, you give them more impression. The online officers being on campus [00:15:00] hearing what people are saying. I think there’s some weight that we give to this. I wouldn’t reject it, but I guess I would read it with a grain of salt. Be careful about not over-interpreting this. This might be a little bit boring, but it is quantifiable. I think we should go back to a point that you were making, Jeanette. We actually have some better data now on what tools were used and consistent with the Every Learner Everywhere / Tyton Partners report and some others. While video conferencing, such as Zoom, such as Blackboard Collaborate increased the most during the spring of 2020, the LMS, as they described in this report is the workhorse. It’s essentially ubiquitous that it is more used than any other system for even remote teaching. That doesn’t [00:16:00] mean it’s in-depth usage or valuable usage, but we need to keep in mind this sort of counteracts a narrative that faculty just threw things on Zoom and there was no organization or structure to the course. That does imply that there was heavier usage of LMS. How meaningful is that data?

Kevin: If you look at the Every Learner Everywhere information about that same question, where they put existing users and new users and their table on page 19, the learning management system. 78 percent of the population were existing users, whereas only 21 percent were using video conferencing before the transition to remote learning. Then if you look at that graph, 49 percent of the users that were added to that, 21 percent for video conferencing bring it up to 70 total were new users. That was a huge spike. Almost 50 percent of the teaching faculty began [00:17:00] using video conferencing as a result of COVID. Only 9 percent began using it as a result using the learning management system, as a result of COVID. The totals reach almost 90 percent for learning management system. It’s that new user total that really leapt out at me from that Every Learner Everywhere, certainly.

Phil: Now, one thing I would also look at in this data helps confirm it. When you get to the fourth most used system, remote proctoring is another product category that’s become more and more important, and it has a big increase. You’re reading a lot about schools trying to say, if we’re doing things remote, we have to have some way of knowing who the students are. Some sort of academic integrity and remote proctoring truly is increasing in importance across higher education. Then that comes with a cost that comes with real questions about student [00:18:00] privacy and even pedagogical usage. Should you be doing tests that require proctoring? It’s certainly the data certainly confirms how important it is in the usage of systems.

Kevin: I’m not quite sure with 308 chief online officers predominantly overrepresented in private non-profits, if that’s representative of the whole country, because you just don’t know that every campus has the funding to support something like ProctorU or Proctorio or some of their proctoring.

Phil: I’ve seen other studies saying there definitely is a increase, but yes, it has to vary between the different sectors and the size of institutions. It certainly is becoming an increasingly common or important factor within higher education. It’s got a lot of questions behind it.

Let’s jump ahead. There’s an interesting section looking [00:19:00] at online program managers and what their roles are. For example, Figure 16 is talking about how did you manage the transition? 90 percent of school or chief online officer said we managed the transition entirely in-house. 8 percent said they did, mostly in-house with some OPM and 0.3p ercent were saying mostly OPM, but some in-house. It certainly doesn’t appear that OPM are massive factor in the transition that we did in the spring. In fact, as schools look at what’s important, it’s really the number one factor schools are saying is they’ve got to build up their internal capacity. That’s more important than expanding their agreement with OPM providers. I have to be careful about drawing too [00:20:00] much. It’s interesting to see data about how schools perceive OPM players and their role in this type of transition that we’re going through. Jeanette, did any of these findings on the OPM surprise you?

Jeanette: I don’t know if it surprised me. I think that what I see is a real need from institutions and maybe some of a role that OPM can step in to or new vendors of assisting. There’s some out there, assisting the creation of courses, not necessarily programs at the undergraduate level that include content creation and instructional design and working alongside faculty. That’s typically a role that OPM do. There’s right now more of a need to try to build that out internally within these institutions. To do that, OPM can step in or other like vendors can.

One of the sponsors of the report is I-design. Something that you might see I-design do. [00:21:00]

Phil: You have to actually mention, like in figure 17, if you already have an OPM contract, what it is almost one in four said, we do plan on expanding our agreement with our OPM partner moving forward. It’s not that they’re a nonfactor, but it’s definitely a clear message that internal capacity is an even bigger factor, much bigger factor in these schools, even if they already have an OPM partner.

Jeanette: The other thing to add to that is I think what we’ve discussed in other podcasts and things that we’re really seeing is the financial impact that the pandemic is having on everybody. It’s certainly these institutions higher out in K-12 and those revenues are really needed right now by these institutions. OPMs take a lot of it. I think that there’s likely some hesitation from institutions to go forward with an OPM that’s going to be taking a majority of your profits.

Phil: Sure. The one thing I would caution [00:22:00] there. Where the OPM have been taking a majority has been typically master’s programs with full revenue writers. I think a lot of the expansion we’re talking about is across undergraduate programs. I don’t believe those they’re looking at revenue share and 50 plus percent. I think there’s more of a fee for service where you’re getting your OPM partner to help with students that they hadn’t been helping before. I agree, I think there’s a headwind, however, that budgetary constraints have to be a part of saying we’ve got to be able to figure out how to do this ourselves.

Jeanette: Exactly.

Kevin: Well, also to consider that figure 17 is the percentage of the 10 percent or fewer of that figure. 16 schools that had an OPM contract before the pandemic began. 25 percent of 10 percent is 2 and a hald percent.

Phil: There’s certainly not an overwhelming story of OPMs that this [00:23:00] is the time that they’re now into undergraduate education and they’re fully established as a key part of broad based undergraduate. My interpretation of what we’re talking about right now, that’s not happening. There are isolated cases where they’re getting involved and helping schools out. Statistically, it’s still a very small number of cases.

This is this been a good discussion of what we’ll likely have a blog post out as well looking at some of these findings. Jeanette, you mentioned the fact that you’re getting fatigued, and I guess I’m sort of in the same place. Maybe not fatigue, but I feel like I’m getting bombarded every day. I’m seeing a new survey and it’s getting pretty hard to keep track of it. That’s part of my impression, is it’s you have to spend effort to get value out of the surveys personally because so many of them are coming out right now.  [00:24:00]Any final thoughts that you two have on this or the general state of surveys?

Jeanette: My final thought, I guess, is that it’s going to be interesting. I think the things that are most valuable right now on these surveys, are the quantifiable pieces of data. I think that we are seeing these surveys over and over again and they pretty much say the same thing. Spring was heroic and how everybody transition to online so quickly, but not ideal and both for learning and teaching was not ideal. I think that because there is so much more of a variety of how schools are going to be either going online or in person or hybrid or Hyflex, I think the fall surveys or the fall data coming out, this is going to be more interesting because it’s not going to be so homogeneous of how people went online. That is where we probably will find real variations in how education is being taught, [00:25:00] how education is being delivered and how we are going to move forward. I think that’s where we’ll start seeing trends.

Phil: Kevin, any final thoughts you had on this or surveys in general at this stage?

Kevin: Yeah, I would say we still are not paying as much attention to students. I know these were faculty surveys, but if you look at the CHLOE, over 50 percent of those institutions are going to require faculty development and only 35 percent are going to require student orientation. If everybody is acknowledging that student engagement needs to increase, we need to help students figure out how to do it. Also just one small thing from Penn State’s thing that made me think of the NFL Buccaneers head coach who said, I think every player on the team is going to get COVID at some point during the season. Two thirds of the employees self-assessed that they’re COVID risk was moderate to high, but only 14 percent were reported being unwilling to return to face to face teaching under any circumstances. It’s almost like they’re acknowledging that we’re at high risk. We need the workspaces [00:26:00] too. 74 percent believe the work spaces need some changes before to support social distancing. They’re all basically accepting that they’re going to go back to some face to face interactions. I know that’s part of the challenge that these faculty surveys bring is what we’re hearing in the news. I thought it was interesting that Every Learner Everywhere brought up how some of the faculty findings in their survey were very different than what’s being reported in the news. I think as we move closer to the fall, as Jeanette said, we’ll be getting some data where people a little bit further away from the urgency and emergency of the situation. We’ll have more about what campuses are actually doing. I’m surprised that we’re halfway through July and we still have campuses that haven’t figured that out yet. I’m an armchair quarterback position. I have the luxury of not having to make that decision myself.

Phil: If I combine those two [00:27:00] a references to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and you’re an armchair quarterback, you are the Tom Brady of EdTech, so I’ll buy that. As long as we’re going dark, I do want to add one more point. This, as far as a depressing statement, but it confirms what we’re saying. Little attention was paid to accessibility. That’s another area, particularly for students that I think is sort of a ticking time bomb. Is that in the spring that heroic efforts? It was remarkable, the transition, how smooth it went. I don’t think schools have come around to understanding how important accessibility is and the risk they face as an institution by not paying attention to this. The Department of Education, Department of Justice, they’re going to start cracking down on the accessibility front again. Students deserve more attention to be paid. As long as we’re going dark, that’s the I’d like to throw that one in there as well. Moving forward.

It’s [00:28:00] been a great conversation. Expect this to come out on the same day the CHLOE 5 survey is released in public. It’s great talking to you, Kevin and Jeanette.

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In this episode, Phil Hill, Jeanette Wiseman, and Kevin Kelly discuss the growing pushback from many in the academic community to colleges’ and universities’ reopening plans, focusing on two recent articles arguing that we’ll be all online in the fall.


  • Phil Hill
  • Jeanette Wiseman
  • Kevin Kelly


Phil: Welcome to COVID Transitions. I’m Phil Hill, and we’re back again with Kevin Kelly and Jeanette Wiseman. And great to talk to you guys this day, even though it’s been a very interesting week.

Jeanette: Hey.

Kevin: Hey.

Phil: Let’s jump right into the topic, which I have to say ahead of time, it seems like the pressure in higher education has really been ramping up over the past few weeks on the decisions about fall plans. And that’s somewhat predictable. We talked in our podcast called Enter Darkness about how the fall was going to be entering into this period of uncertainty. And people would second guess you, no matter what the choice was, for an institution to open up. But I don’t think I really had in mind or understood just how intense a lot of the pushback was going to be.

And this week, we wanted to talk about a lot of the academic community pushback on [00:01:00] school plans for reopening a particular looking, as an example, two Op Eds that were published this week. They were really calling out, saying that colleges who were planning on any form of face to face reopening, having any students on campus, that it’s just going to end in disaster. And it’s a major mistake. And one of the Op Eds was at Inside Higher Ed. It was published this morning – today is Friday – by Ryan Craig. For each of these I’ll set up the premise, as they did it. His post is titled “Flim Flam: College in 2020.” And jumping ahead:. 

“The story of every mark who encounters a flimflam man is a carnival version of Joseph Campbell’s hero’s journey. First, the flimflam man approaches the mark. Second, temptation, followed by a small payoff to demonstrate the scheme’s purported effectiveness. Third, the hard sell to go all in. Finally, a sudden unanticipated crisis or change of events that results in a complete loss.Millions of college students are now on this sucker’s journey. College students and their families are perfect marks. They’re told a degree is the only pathway to good jobs. After a remote spring and summer best characterized by the great They Might Be Giants lyric “If it wasn’t for disappointment/I wouldn’t have any appointments,” they’re primed for the temptation of a return to campus and normalcy.” [00:02:00]

That’s the end of the quote. The second one is from the Chronicle of Higher Education, and it’s from Robert Kelchen, and his is titled “This Will Be One of the Worst Months in the History of Higher Education”.” It actually builds off of a Twitter thread that he put out that got a lot of attention. So in his first two paragraphs: [00:03:00]

“Summer is usually a period of relative calm for most of American higher education, but this one is different. Faculty members are increasingly indignant about the prospect of being forced back on campus in the fall; administrators are quietly scrambling behind the scenes to do contingency planning. These disruptions are just the beginning. Whether colleges are willing to admit it or not, chaos will be greeting many of them in the coming weeks, and wishful thinking will not be enough to avoid it.

Most colleges have been optimistically pitching a return to campus for students, even if they acknowledge the experience will be much different than normal. The Chronicle’s tracker of colleges’ fall plans currently shows that about 60 percent of colleges are planning for an in-person fall, while less than 10 percent are planning for a mainly online fall.”

So these are not the only two situations where a lot of people in the academic community are pushing back [00:04:00] on college plans. But I think they’re pretty illustrative and worth exploring. We haven’t discussed this between the three of us much, so let’s see how it goes. Let’s start out with the Inside Higher Ed article, the flimflam article by Ryan Craig, and let’s hear what your initial thoughts are. Let’s start with you, Jeanette. What were your thoughts on this article?

Jeanette: If it was a really interesting article. It was I thought thought out. I think it’s probably what a lot of people are fearing right now, especially students and their families, that there’s a lack of transparency, slight, maybe, wishful thinking from their colleges. And I don’t think that it’s necessarily something that universities or colleges are being dishonest about. I think that they’re just hoping for the best. They’re realizing that they’re trying to balance [00:05:00] revenues and what students are wanting, and making sure that they don’t close, with what is the safest for their students and the faculty on campus. And that balance has become really, really difficult.

Phil: Ok, great. Kevin, what are your initial thoughts on the inside higher ed article?

Kevin: My initial reaction was a little disappointment, a little ‘Hey, we’re using hyperbole.’ To make a point on Jeanette’s thinking that this is not a conscious effort to frame universities and colleges as flim flam artists, when really they’re stuck between a rock and a hard place, and haven’t made a decision by the time they probably should have.

I was guessing most institutions would have made their decisions by July 1st, and would or should have planned for what might happen if things don’t get better. The wishful thinking paradigm [00:06:00] doesn’t really work when you’re running a multi-million dollar organization with thousands of students and staff and faculty all affected.

So to me, the article makes some good points, but it does so in a way that’s calling on, you know, the magic of that article from – was it McKinnie? – took away from its strength.

Phil: Oh, the McSweeney’s article, which is satire.

Kevin: Exactly.

Phil: It’s a satire site. Well, I’ll take you one step further. I thought this op ed was crap. There might have been some good points, but it got so buried in hyperbole as you’re saying. It illustrates to me how toxic some of the conversations are becoming, and how unhelpful this pushback – not all pushback – but this type of pushback is. I mean, setting up the whole thing as a flimflam, carnival, [00:07:00] is making the argument that collegiate administrators deliberately know they’re wrong, and they’re deliberately trying to trick people just for their own financial gain. And there’s no acknowledgement that, hey, there’s a difficult choice being made and we’re trying to weigh one risk versus the other. And we’re in a tough situation.

And ‘let’s consult people and make the best guess we can,’ which obviously I’m laying out that’s sort of my opinion more generally, but laying it out as flimflam and carnival scam artist. And then even throwing in a gratuitous calling his former college classmate, a Nazi. What was the purpose of throwing that in there? And so to me, by doing all that stuff, all the good points that were in there, I had to force myself to read the whole article to try to find something useful in there. And I think the hyperbole really harms [00:08:00] the whole thing. So that was my reaction to it.

Kevin: Well, and if you contrast it against another opinion piece that came out in the last week on CNN, Roopika Risam talked about the fact that if being humane is not motivation enough, universities should consider the role of racial equity in their reopening plans, going toward students, going toward the staff who might work in dining halls or housing facilities, or cleaning the buildings, that are at risk just as much as anybody else and may have less of a choice. Like faculty members may be able to teach online, even if it’s with students in the classroom. But some of these staff members may not have a choice about whether or not they get to go on a campus if it reopens. And so I prefer that approach to an opinion article than the one that could be left on the fiction shelf.

Phil: Sure. Jeanette. You’re the one who’s much nicer than Kevin [00:09:00] or I am, certainly than myself. Did do these issues – the hyperbole – did they affect you in the reading, or do you have a different opinion on it?

Jeanette: So I think my reaction to it wasn’t quite as angry as maybe the two of you. I think I read it and saw it as being a bit of hyperbole, but someone that was trying to get the point across. And I think that there’s some truth to it. I mean, I do think that there is some truth to students and and parents feeling a little bit like they’re not being told the honest truth and that they’re worried about their kids going into school and not really being protected. And I think that it was a little McSweeny-ish, but it’s got the point across, and I didn’t get angry reading.

Phil: Well, the bigger issue is not – certainly not myself – but I mean the bigger issue: Who’s it going to convince? I mean, do people when you call when you set it up as saying, ‘hey, [00:10:00] you guys are being flimflam artist,’ what are the chances this will influence somebody to rethink or to hear your point of view if you’re directly arguing that way? That’s what I’m concerned about, is how much positive influence on the dialogue. I don’t want to sound wishy washy, but who’s going to listen?

Kevin: Maybe that’s not his audience. Maybe he’s trying to incite the parents and students to take action.

Phil: And while this gets to a point that I had an episode earlier this week with Inside Higher Ed and another op ed that was called “When Generals Die in Bed,” where they made essentially the argument, you know, you’re sending your troops out to die. But the generals who are making these decisions, they’re just going to die peacefully in their beds. And I get the point they’re trying to make there, which is that faculty and staff are going to be much more on the frontlines in terms of in classes with students. But by putting [00:11:00] it that way. And that article demonstrated a strong lack of understanding of online education. It just to me, it ruins the opportunity. So I guess I’m not saying they shouldn’t be published. I’m just saying we’re seeing a lot of this type of academic pushback that’s happening right now. This is one example of one approach. And I think you might be right, Kevin. Maybe the approach is to try to get other people up in arms.

Jeanette: Well, I think it also reflects the sentiment of where a lot of people are right now, especially faculty who are reading this. We keep on focusing, I think not just we, but I think the general media are focused on the students, how the students are going to be back and forth with the students are going to be doing what you know, their impact is going to be. And there’s not been as much conversation, or things written about or even spoken about, the faculty and the faculty impact – both not only on just getting the courses up and running, but their [00:12:00] health and looking at especially, not necessarily community colleges, but maybe some of the more established schools where faculty are on the older side and asking them to come to teach in person is a risk for them.

Phil: You don’t think that’s getting covered? I mean, heck, with a big New York Times article. I think there’s a lot of coverage, at least over the past two weeks on the subject, maybe over the last two weeks.

Jeanette: I don’t think up to this point there hasn’t been as much focus on the stress and strain that it’s putting on faculty, aside from, hey, there’s a lot of faculty members and I don’t really know how to teach online. I think a constant theme since spring, but it’s not necessarily looking at what our schools are doing to protect faculty and staff. I was learning this week about a whole group of even the custodial staff of a certain school that was supposed to be really protected, and [00:13:00] it was subcontracted out by someone else. And the majority of that staff has been infected by COVID, and they’re the ones cleaning the campus. And I think that there’s a lot of those types of discussions that aren’t happening. And I think maybe these both, or at least these articles and one the two that you mentioned at Inside Higher Ed are just reflecting that sentiment of fear from faculty.

Phil: Kevin?

Kevin: Well, I was just going to say the CNN article was last Thursday the 2nd, and there is an article in San Francisco Chronicle last Friday. The third called A Problem for College in the Fall: Reluctant Professors and gets into if you look at the average age of instructors in higher ed, there are quite a few who are in a range that would be considered at risk for coronavirus. And so they definitely have to consider what if a faculty member says, no, I’m not going to do it? Then what? And even more upsetting for some [00:14:00] are the union issues related to lecturer teaching roles being basically changed or admitted so that full time tenure track faculty members can have a full load because certain classes are getting cancelled. And so the whole kind of class system on a campus is amplified when you have an emergency situation like this. And the CNN article did bring up the stuff that you just brought up as well, the custodial staff, Jeanette. So I think you’re right on line with – we’re getting close enough where people are paying attention to more factors. And it’s too bad that we didn’t have more thoughtful preparation a month ago, because I think we’re going be in this place where ambiguity reigns right up until the end. And so all the things we’ve been saying about students wanting clear communication. They want to know what’s going on. Even if you’re not quite sure. So that they are aware [00:15:00] that you’re preparing for their safety, that you’re looking for their learning to be a better set of experiences than they had in the spring and much more.

And right now, like the University of Southern California changed its mind and said, we’re not going to do a hybrid after all. We’re going to be mostly online. So students are getting mixed messages or no messages at all. And it’s it’s making it difficult for them to make decisions.

Phil: Well, if you look at it in these terms of the timing, I think you’re right that where we have seen the issue of faculty, not just preparedness, but health and their willingness – that’s been very recent, where these articles are all coming out. And in the spring, it was all about students and what they were going to do or what their well-being as does. That sort of runs counter to the narrative of higher education, that higher education has become all about faculty and what they want [00:16:00] and really not being student centric. I find it interesting that we’re talking about the reverse right now. Hey, there hasn’t been enough, or certainly until recently, conversation about faculty and what this does to them sort of goes against the popular narrative.

Jeanette: It does. But I think a lot of what has happened up to this point is the fear of loss of revenue, which is controlled by the students primarily except for auxiliary revenues. And so I think that’s where the focus has been. Is this school gonna be able to stay open? Are they going to be able to even offer any kind of education to these students? If not, is this school going to close? What’s how that going to impact not only the school but the faculty and the community that where that school resides? And I think just now, I think there’s two things that are happening. Not only are we getting closer to school start, but also I think in the spring and probably even in early May. Everyone thought that by this point, especially in July, [00:17:00] we were gonna see the COVID cases going down. And that’s not happening there, spiking in so many, so many places. So there’s now a real risk to these faculty members and it has to be something that people are looking at.

Phil: So let’s jump to the other article. The Chronicle of Higher Ed article from Robert Kelchen.

Jeanette: Well, I like that one because I have a lot of data and tables with information, especially around just looking and seeing how some of these schools, especially the smaller ones, rely so much on not only tuition, but auxiliary revenues, which are described in that article as being things like housing and food and things that are things people buy while on campus.

While I really did like the article, I thought it was well researched. And to have that information right in front of me, I really enjoyed. It was very depressing. What he is saying is pretty much so many schools are probably going to be closing in the next five weeks. And [00:18:00] that’s a real disturbing thought for me.

Kevin: Well, to me, it was sound. I had a lot of data and it reinforced some thinking that I’ve seen in other data that I’ve been reviewing for this meta analysis of student surveys. And one of them by the Hope Center at Temple University was talking about how COVID has exacerbated basic needs, insecurity like housing and food. When not only is that a problem for the campus, that, too, not just brought up that you’re losing that auxiliary revenue, but it’s also a problem for the students who may not have a place to go live and may not have a really hard time finding food. And so the challenges are are big and we haven’t figured it out yet.

Phil: I thought this was an excellent article. I didn’t agree with all of it, but I think it was excellent. And it contributes to the conversation, as [00:19:00] you guys are saying. It calls out situations. It explains itself. Robert did a good job of backing his arguments up with data as opposed to name calling, as opposed to just trying to inflame the reaction. So I applaud The Chronicle and Robert for publishing this, and I think it contributes to it. So in all ways, I like that. Where I have an issue with the article is it almost self refutes as he knocks himself down. But he doesn’t come to the point of saying he is so sure that all of these colleges are going to close in the next five weeks because of the risk and the increase in cases. Yet his own article lays out why that’s an existential problems for colleges. The revenue, will they be able to stay in business. And the point is, there is such a high demand on each side. Go [00:20:00] online or open some form of face to face.

And he calls them out within here. But I think that his conclusions are obviously they’re going to have to close, move to fully online without saying it could be that because of all the issues he calls out on the financial pressures, it’s going to ensure – and ensure is probably a strong word – it’s going to make it more likely that colleges will dig in and say, no, we really have to keep some form of face to face or hybrid going. So I think he missed that part. But overall, I think it was a very good article and it leads to some very good conversations.

Kevin: Well, and I think by taking a firm stance at one end of the spectrum, that’s the way public discourse happens. You get these perspectives and you react to them and inform them. So the fact that his only call to action at the end was to tell everybody you’re going online immediately, [00:21:00] his subsequent sentences about now you can devote resources to improving online education while you’re a month away from classes taking place. It’s going to be really hard for a faculty member to redesign a course and get ready to facilitate it online if they haven’t done so or haven’t been doing so already. And so it misses the mark in another way by not looking at the number of campuses that are looking at hybrid or hybrid flexible or some form of either one of those courses to increase the safety for students to make sure that there’s some sense of instructional continuity. And it kind of belies the fact that there’s been a lot of thinking and doing around the summer around the country. But it’s not that every campus has decided to go online fully. And so that’s where I think you could have done a better job.

Jeanette: Well, and I also wonder, would Robert write the same article after some announcements this week? You know, in terms of [00:22:00] from the administration, in terms of international students not being able to get visas and unless there’s in-person classes and then also about public funding of any schools that are going online.

Phil: What we’ll call THE tweet.

Jeanette: The Tweet, that’s right. So, the whole article is essentially about how the finances of these schools, and calling to question those things, and then saying to go on line when those things go against what the schools are really having to struggle with. If they go online, then not only the international students who really contribute a lot to tuition, but also in the communities of having these people in person. It’s going to impact those revenues, going online.

Phil: Well, we’ll call out Robert. See if he’ll listen to this.  [00:23:00]It would be excellent to get him to do a response to, or an update. Because this whole thing started with a Twitter thread, so it was done thoughtfully, but in a medium that can be done quickly. I think that’s a great question that we should ask him. What changes in your analysis based on this?

Kevin: And he he does a lot of focus on the small private nonprofit colleges that are at risk of closing and things like that. But what about the large systems, the the ones that maybe have a even harder time, maybe not because of the alternative revenue channels, but for reasons that Jeanette just brought up, that international students may comprise a large portion of their tuition. If they are fully online, those students may be at risk of going back to a place where it’s less safe than in the states. They may be working in labs where they’re no longer able to pursue the non coursework that they’ve been doing and their [00:24:00] contributions to the communities where they live are going to be removed as well. So there’s so many factors that are just not only about the money, but about students lives and their ability to to reach their own goals. There’s been a lot of talk about whether or not gap years turn into just no longer pursuing a college degree and other things that students who don’t have the luxury of sitting around will have to consider.

Phil: Even the Cornell study, and that’s just one example. But I don’t think there’s been enough discussion of, OK, if you do a fully online, what is the impact on students? So some of the surveys that you’re looking at, Kevin, on the students, it does get into it. But when you’re looking at this tradeoff of do we do a hybrid fall or do we do an online fall, it’s a mistake to say, well, if we do an online fall, well, then students [00:25:00] will be safe. No, they won’t. They’re doing a lot of the same activities and parties, whether or not they’re on campus. And the Cornell study, that they did for their planning, essentially argued that they will actually have a lower incident of cases if they’re on campus, because we can get students to test, and we’ll be able to have influence or control on students to a much greater degree than if we do fully online now.

Some of the pushback on the Cornell study is saying, hey, but you’re ignoring the impact on faculty and staff. And I didn’t think the study ignored it, but it just called out that this is not a moral question. In my mind, that there is no risk if you do one type of behavior versus the other, you have risk on both sides. You have a risk to student health, faculty health. You have risk on both sides. It’s what’s the most realistic and [00:26:00] appropriate decision for it. And I don’t think there’s enough of that understanding or discussing what the about what the analysis and trade tradeoffs are outside of finances in particular.

Did I squelch conversation with that?

Kevin: No, it’s just a really where do we go from here? A question that I don’t know if anybody has the answer.

Phil: So had this gets back to the Enter Darkness. I think that what we’re facing in the fall, we’re entering a dark fall on what we mean by that: It’s full of uncertainty. If you’re a school administrator, heck, if you’re even faculty member, whatever choice you make, you will get second guessed and there will be arguments about what you’re doing is wrong, and there will be students who are going to suffer either way. I mean, that’s just the nature of the fall that we’re heading into. And so I think the main point of these articles is just highlighting that this pushback is happening. And as Jeanette [00:27:00] was saying on the Inside Higher Ed highlighting the fact that it’s only recently that we’ve looked at the faculty perspective from a health and safety. And students, are they tuitions and are they getting ripped off? It is highlighting this perspective. Boy, this is an interesting fall that we’re heading into.

I did have one other point I want to bring up before we do a wrap up. Both of these articles, and I’m seeing it everywhere, tend to reference the Chronicle data tracker on what the college plans are. But there’s a persistent problem with the Chronicle data tracker, that they classify 60 percent, some 60 percent as fully in person. If you look at it, there’s very, very few colleges or universities who are truly opening up in-person for all students. The majority is some form of hybrid, which we’ve written about. But the fact is, people keep [00:28:00] referencing back to the Chronicle article, and then particularly for the general public, you start thinking, oh, most colleges and universities don’t have plans. They’re just going to try to reopen it, that the Chronicle data is missing its categorization. And I think it leaves some of this conversation astray.

Kevin: Well, I think some of it is based on public statements about intention rather than what’s actually going to happen. And so you get some conflation or some confusion or some other CONF word that I probably can’t think of right now.

Phil: Don’t use the CONF word effort.

Kevin: D’oh! Conference.

Phil: Yeah, but it’s a great data resource, and I’ve done a visualization based on the data. But I really made a mistake by doing the first visualization purely based off of their categories without addressing this issue first.

But as I look at these articles, people love to [00:29:00] reference this plan, and it misses that a lot of these schools that are have some form of in-person – they do have pretty in-depth preparations they are going through. They’re definitely making efforts to address safety concerns and figure out how to minimize. I guess I’m just complaining about that. But I wish that we had better categorization on what the plans are.

Well, this was not the cheeriest episode, but I think that’s where we are in higher education. We’re in a very tense month. That’s understatement as far as Robert Kelchen is concerned. This is a very difficult month and probably will be for the next few months for higher education, both in terms of the pushback and the polarizing discussions around fall plans, but also as budgets become more apparent. I had noted that the City University of New York system has gone for a budget trifecta where they’re cutting 25 percent roughly [00:30:00] of their adjunct faculty. They’re cutting 25 percent of their course availability, meaning larger courses, most likely. And at the same time, they’re raising tuition on students. And I called it the budget trifecta potentially, they haven’t determined yet if they’re also going to kick your dog for you, but I think that we’re going to see a lot more of these cases where it’s difficult decisions. But they can be done poorly, they can be done well. It’s a tense area at this point.

Kevin: Well, it’s gonna raise more equity issues on this, to get to Jeanette’s earlier point about refocusing on faculty as we get closer, is those adjuncts that are now out of jobs, where are they going to do for work? And I know there is a tendency to protect the tenure track faculty members first and make sure they have full loads because they’re [00:31:00] the permanent expense. There are something that you’re investing in, but when 75 % of the nation is lecturer or adjunct faculty, you can’t ignore that fact. And what the repercussions are downstream.

Phil: All right. Jeanette, any parting thoughts to our happy conversation today?

Jeanette: Just that, I think incredibly depressing. I mean, there’s no way to look at it where it’s not it’s not really dark, like you said. No.

Kevin: Well, if we truly are closer to entering darkness, then we might need to go back to the old Viking tales, because they had stories of the Fenris Wolf swallowing the moon and the sun. And so that’s how they dealt with darknesses, just creating myths around it.

Phil: Okay. So we’ll decide between that and Beowulf for the next metaphor that we work off of something dark and Nordic. Well, it is great to talk to you two on the subject, and really appreciate your insights on a very difficult time for higher education.

But thanks a lot.

Logo for MindWires COVID Transitions podcast

In this episode, Phil Hill, Jeanette Wiseman, and Kevin Kelly discuss the emerging debate about opening plans. Are schools that plan to “reopen” really trying to go fully (or even mostly) in-person, or are they going hybrid? Should they?


  • Phil Hill
  • Jeanette Wiseman
  • Kevin Kelly


Phil: Welcome to COVID Transitions. I’m Phil Hill, and again, I’m here with Jeanette Wiseman and Kevin Kelly discussing higher education’s challenges, dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic. It’s been two weeks since we were last here. I had a failed attempt to do a compilation podcast that just didn’t work out. But it’s great to talk to you guys again and be back online with the same subject. So how have you guys been doing the past two weeks?

Jeanette: I’ve been doing pretty well. I mean, keep an eye on, but keep checking on what side you don’t even know. Keep track not I don’t know. I do it. OK, maybe I get a little crazy. And Kevin.

Kevin: Same. Hanging in there. It’s been a busy week. Online event with Inscribe and plenty of work to go around, but excited to be here.

Phil: And it’s interesting also just the context is change around us. In the past week in particular, we’ve seen a dramatic rise in [00:01:00] cases in the U.S. of COVID-19 positive cases. And that I think it’s quite relevant to what we’re talking about because it gets to the point of view. We’re not quite sure of all of the patterns and we can’t take anything for granted with this pandemic.

But specifically, what we wanted to talk about today is that it’s becoming apparent as colleges and universities come out with their plans that the majority are planning on some form of in-person experience for fall 2020 in the US. And that as we look at the data – the Chronicle of Higher Education has a page out with a lot of data – and we’ve taken that, coded it and provided some visuals.

And it’s useful information, but it’s also a little bit misleading, partially because there are very few schools who are truly going back to in-person. [00:02:00] What’s really happening is if somebody is open reopening their campus and going in person, what they really mean is hybrid, that there is a proliferation of hybrid modalities where there’s a mixture of online coursework, face to face student, why things are changing up. But there are some level of in-person, but it’s not back to what things used to be.

So in one of the visualization blog posts, I provided hopefully a correction that Chronicle data and I grouped in person and hybrid together and saying this is really hybrid by with some form of in-person experience in the fall. But as you look at it, that is the majority case in the US, it’s not schools planning to be remote or fully online in the fall. And you’ve got pockets. California is the state [00:03:00] that’s got the greatest percentage of schools or going fully online, and there’s some in the Northeast. But by and large, it’s hybrid at the same time. We’re starting to see more articles where people are pushing back on the idea of reopening.

And it’s almost taking on a moral tone that’s not necessarily useful. So we’re even seeing articles where people are saying the only responsible choices to go fully online, you can only do this fully online.

I think it would be more productive to have a conversation about the various levels of hybrid and what’s likely to work and what’s likely to not work. What are the common themes worsening of these schools moving forward?

And so I guess part of what I’m pointing out is just from the beginning, we’re not seeing fully in-person delivery. What we’re really seeing, it’s hybrid.

But from an [00:04:00] observational status, what are you guys seeing in terms of what? What are the common trends in terms of the schools that plan on some level of in-person experience in the fall? Kevin, what have you seen?

Kevin: I’ve seen a mix. So talking to schools across the system and a big southern state, some campuses don’t want to get a reputation of being an online school.

So they’re pushing back hard against the concept of going online in the fall. And even for things like hybrid flexible, they’re worried that the aspect of having an alternative pathway that is online will give them that reputation. So they have to fight really hard to figure out how to do that in person. Well. And keep their students safe.

We saw the Protect Purdue plan, which has all these different factors, including 10 feet of breathing space within between the beds and six feet of moving space.

And it strikes [00:05:00] me as a question, how many students are going to be allowed back on campus and which students will be allowed back on campus?

Phil: Jeanette, What did you see?

Jeanette: Ok. So, you know, what I’ve seen is families, parents and students deciding, OK, we might try this school out.

That’s closer to home. Or maybe we will try this school out. That’s not going to charge as much tuition. And those are some of the trends. I see that sort of coming up against these plans of who’s going to be allowed to go back on campus. And if that’s the school I had attended in last year and it doesn’t seem like they’re making the plan that seems the safest for my child or that I feel comfortable as a student going to that I’m going to look for alternatives. And so it’s interesting to see the increase in enrollments and excuse an increase of enrollments for other schools that we’re maybe worried, you know, when this all started.

Kevin: What’s interesting is that maps to the Wiley Aslanian [00:06:00] survey about students who are in fully online programs. And if students perceive that they may end up having to be online, they want to be closer to home, just like the students in those fully online programs at Wiley found out the that educational services. So I’m wondering if it’s something you remarked on several podcasts ago, Jeanette about UNM, University of New Mexico having a higher enrollment for the fall, partly because students may be coming home from other campuses. And it would be interesting to see that visualization that Phil put together and see if we can show almost like you see on an airline magazine in the back where they show the that the travel paths of the planes and the show to and from like, where are our students leaving and where are they going back home and and see if there’s an equitable distribution of people across the country.

Jeanette: Well, I do have some inside information from UNM specifically, and what was interesting is the increase in enrollment is not necessarily [00:07:00] from in-state students. So what I think that UNM is, I think, a very high value school, in my opinion, in terms of the value of education, you know, the return on investment and the cost of tuition. And so I’m wondering if it’s one of those things where students are like, OK, it’s still a big state school. It’s an hour one. You know, maybe you’re not going to go to somewhere else that’s nearby. You’ll go to you and it’s ten thousand dollars less.

That’s what I’m wondering. That’s all I can point to is just the cost of tuition is so much lower than a lot of what I would say, peer schools.

Phil: I’m not sure that I’m seeing I’m seeing changes in enrollment patterns. But what I haven’t seen a lot are students. Actually, we’re we’re hearing from students saying we don’t think this campus opening plan is safe. I mean, I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, but most [00:08:00] of these campuses, I guess I give them the benefit of the doubt that even Purdue people love to push on Purdue all. They’re just trying to reopen. And it’s a political issue. But Kevin, reference there, Protect Purdue plan.

And there is a lot of activity they’re doing to try to minimize the number of students. They’re changing their schedule. And one of the most common things I’m saying is schools trying to say we want to be done by Thanksgiving so that anything after Thanksgiving will be done online. Because that’s a lot of models are predicting it might be a second or third peak at that point. But my point is, it seems to me like even Purdue, they’re making a lot of precautions.

And I haven’t seen a lot of activity where students are saying, ‘I deem your opening plans to be unsafe. And so I want to look at another school.’ I see them doing that for value. But it’s not like a lot of schools are just saying we’re opening and not thinking [00:09:00] about them. I’m seeing a lot of thoughtful plans, but in an area of uncertainty, you know, we’re not quite sure what’s going to work out.

Kevin: But are students, the right group to answer that question, when you know that 80 plus percent of the students and all of those surveys we reviewed said the thing they miss most is connections to their classmates. Here in California, one of the biggest super spreader activities right now, are graduation parties for high school seniors. Where 13 to 30 people are walking away, catching Coronavirus from those events.

So they may be young enough and not ready enough worldwide to to not care about the coronavirus as much as that connection with their peers.

Phil: But I’m not trying to capture what should happen. I think it’s most important to at least start with what is happening. And so what I’m really calling [00:10:00] out is I’m not hearing a significant . . .

Well, I guess two things. I’m not seeing the case that there are a lot of campuses who are just flat out opening and doing so, ignoring the risk. They’re making, for the most part, I’m seeing fairly thoughtful plans on how to mitigate risk. Some will work, some won’t work. But I’m seeing pretty thoughtful plans by and large.

I haven’t seen pushback at the student level saying we don’t feel safe. And, you know, to the point that we might change our decision based on what this campus is doing. I’m just not seeing that.

Jeanette: Have you guys seen any of these plans? I don’t think I have, but maybe I’ve missed it.

Have you seen any plans, where they’re saying, okay, if the case load or, you know, if we’re not if we’re seeing rates rise and it goes above fifteen percent, then we’re going to shut everything down and that’s going to go online. And this is what the cap is going [00:11:00] to be for our institution if and then we’re going to you know, that’s when we’re gonna go ahead and go on. And as soon as, you know, the rates go back down, we’ll open back up to hybrid. Have you seen any type of thing that’s gone out that way?

Phil: I definitely see contingency plans such as. Here’s what we’re going to put in place if we have to go back to fully online in the middle of the term. And I’ve seen schools saying, and we’re going to wrap things up based on what our what our state or our local county is measuring.

I’m not sure that I’ve seen schools setting their own specific targets, but I definitely think contingency plans based on what the actual rates are. But I think I’ve seen it more often where they’re referring to local governments and that’s what the basis is going to be. I don’t know anything different. Yeah.

Kevin: Yeah. Where I teach at S.F. State, the latest transmission, they they haven’t put on thing about the fall since May, but they [00:12:00] just had an update to their website this week saying these are the latest regulations with respect to masks.

And so they’re putting basically some of the onus on decision making around how to execute safety on the local health authorities.

Phil: Actually, I wouldn’t mind talking a little bit about mask, and I realize I might be projecting my own feelings into this as far as what students are looking at. But my daughter, my youngest daughter goes to Santa Clara University and we’ve been critical that they seem, they were not aggressive in putting together their own plans on hybrid, on contingency planning until very recently.

But they just came out with guidance yesterday that actually did have a lot of detail at it. And one element jumped out at me where they’re talking about any if you’re on campus, outside or inside, [00:13:00] you have to wear a mask. And for me, I’m just trying to think, how realistic is that? Are you really going to be able to get students to wear a. Virtually all the time? I’m I have trouble seeing that. That’s a realistic scenario.

Kevin: I think it’s possible it’s you have to set the culture up front. I encouraged in one blog post that they any campus that has a fashion department create a contest for students to design a mask for the campus and then mass produce those.

But I would say that the key thing is, you know, for the students who are developing their identities, this is an opportunity for them to show leadership and to do what’s right. But it’s going to take everybody, including the campus presidents, to be modeling what the behavior should be.

Jeanette: I agree with that, I in my state, in New Mexico, you more often than not see people wearing masks inside [00:14:00] and outside. And I think it’s just part of what’s being accepted right now. I was up and house earlier this week and I was surprised actually at the number of people that, you know, construction workers, you know, just the locals, no matter how far they were aware, no way from somebody else that they were wearing masks. I think it just has become the norm now and it’s not even questioned. You don’t, you know, take it off when you walk outside. You just keep it on all the time.

Phil: Well, I guess I’m that’s where I said I’m concerned I might be putting my own opinions or my own feelings in here.

But what I’m what I’m concerned about is if it’s a binary choice wearing a mask period, as opposed to ‘we expect you to wear mask in these scenarios, but then in this other situation, that’s safer to not have to wear a mask. We’re not going to enforce it if you don’t have some nuance of the policy.’ My concern is, is that people just ignore it, that it becomes too draconian, so bad to wear masks all [00:15:00] the time. I don’t see students doing that by and large. And if there’s no nuance, then the risk is we’re not just pushing back. When we’re sitting alone in a park doing studying that, we’ll just ignore it all the time or as much as possible. So my concern is sort of the binary choice that’s being presented.

Kevin: Sure, and if you look at just even the state guidelines, it’s typically something like wear a mask when being physically distant is not possible or it’s going to change. You know, like if you’re on a running trail and you’re going to come across joggers and you’re going to have to at least have your mask handy so you can put it in place before you get within six feet of somebody. But yeah, that makes sense that you don’t make it an all or nothing proposition.

Phil: Now, if we talk about things that are happening and if we actually put ourselves back a couple months, I think I would be it would be shocking if we were back in February and tried to predict this conversation [00:16:00] back then.

But I have seen just the majority, a large majority of campuses that are going to have any any sort of in-person opening. So hybrid openings that their coursework truly is hybrid, that we really are talking about mass effort where large online large lecturers are going to be done online and HyFlex hybrid flexible that we’ve talked about quite a bit. Kevin, you’ve written about quite a bit. That’s becoming almost a one of the default norms for higher education, at least for all. So on the coursework side, I am seeing a massive movement towards hybrid delivery that is got to have a long term impact on what’s going to happen.

Are you seeing any schools who aren’t working at hybrid force delivery?

Kevin: You mean other than the ones that already know they’re going to be mostly virtual? Yes, yes. For the ones that are opening [00:17:00] up, are you have you.

Phil: So I guess to restate that, it seems like a hybrid and even hybrid flex muscles almost becoming the default assumption on coursework for the goal. It’s not consistent with what you think it is.

Kevin: I would say that the number of faculty going through professional development to handle the non in-person components, the online or asynchronous or even synchronous components is like a 10x increase where you’re seeing hundreds of faculty go through trainings on campuses instead of tens. And so definitely there is a big preparation movement going on. And and one institution I’m working with is working hard to make sure that students feel prepared before they get to campus on fall because we’re not doing enough to help them get ready. Another factor is just access to equipment.

Somebody who works at a community college here [00:18:00] in the San Francisco Bay Area told me that some faculty members, when they shifted to the emergency remote teaching and learning this spring, had to conduct their courses from computers in the library because they didn’t have a computer on their own. So we have to really think about what that hybridization or move fully online in certain cases means for all the players and the and the and the play.

Phil: You know, those are great points. Jeanette, are you surprised at all about just how commonly accepted hybrid course delivery is and HyFlex in particular?

Jeanette: I don’t think so. I mean, I’ve had I’m looking back at the spring. That seems like the most obvious choice. So you’re looking for how you’re going to deliver this in a way that gives you flexibility to be able to go online or to be in person. It just seems like common sense, to be quite honest. I’m not quite sure what else. Unless we come up with another thing, we can do it. It seems [00:19:00] like the most obvious thing that schools would want to to look for and to try to achieve for fall and moving forward.

Phil: Well, I guess I’m trying to separate common sense, and this makes sense, from ‘this is actually happening.’ We do look at higher education. Right. And so just because it makes sense doesn’t necessarily. Yeah.

Jeanette: But who would have thought that the entire world would have gone online and, you know, a matter of weeks. And everybody was able to just do the heavy lifting and they got it done. As painful as it was. And I think nobody wants to recreate and live through that pain again. And so it’s almost like it’s an action of trying to prevent and avoid avoidance marriage measure to me.

Phil: So maybe after 2020, we’ll have to put to bed this whole canard that used way too often. Higher education hasn’t changed in centuries and we’re still using a factory model and nothing changes and higher up and actually acknowledge [00:20:00] no, actually higher ed goes through enormous changes. We certainly did with the G.I. Bill in the US and radically broadening access to higher education and bringing in all of the diversity and issues that that’s brought to the fore.

But then you take that into 2020. Now, you’re right. The rapid shift to remote teaching in a matter of weeks. And then now what we’re talking about is the large scale adoption of hybrid models or the fall within one term.

I mean, this is not a system that doesn’t change or cannot change. I mean, it can be frustrating that change in many times could have been faster.

But to me, this is a system that does change and we need to acknowledge it and figure out how to improve things. But I just hope that we get rid of the canard of higher education never changes.

Kevin: Well, I always say that higher education moves at glacial speed. And I think this is [00:21:00] just a calf came off in Antarctica.

Phil: So one of the things that we were bringing up earlier was the fact of where we need to acknowledge is the existential crisis that schools face.

We just saw another study, a survey that came out this morning that was pointing out just how a majority of students feel that if they’re going to have to be remote or online, they should be paying lower tuition. And a lot of this is a factor in the decision making. Schools have motivation that, if possible, they should open. Part of it is financial. And it’s a legitimate worry. But you obviously have to handle that in balance with other issues, like it would be a mistake for school only looking at finances.

But I guess part of the part of the challenges is we look at these plans. How well do we think [00:22:00] that they’re handling the financial exit central crisis, but with reasonable precautions and certainly need to acknowledge it’s a challenging situation. But at least from my standpoint, I’ve actually been quite impressed with a lot of these plans, even the product Purdue. We just saw the University of Central Florida’s plans. Santa Clara University came out with a plan yesterday. And and so many of these cases, there are fairly thoughtful plans that are trying to think through all kinds of different scenarios and how to minimize the risk as you go through this.

Kevin: So even the level of planning I’ve actually been impressed with recently when I think we’re going to see quite a few more come July 1st, which is, of course, a target date for a number of campuses to have those plans ready. I think it’s a slippery slope when we talk about different cost models for online courses, because those courses that were online [00:23:00] before coded showed that the success rates can be just as high. And so it’s a matter of choice. And I guess if students are saying they don’t get to choose, they shouldn’t have to pay for the lack of choice.

But I think it’s it’s a it’s a rough thing to say, hey, we had a bad semester because people were forced to move to a different teaching format. So therefore, it’s not as. The same quality.

Phil: What’s your just qualitative judgment on how how well the planning is going on and actually that they’re part of this gets into the K-12? You’ve been relating to us how the state of New Mexico seems to be being fairly sophisticated and the analysis it’s using in the planning it’s doing.

Jeanette: You know, I’m sorry. I’m going to get New Mexico again, I feel like I’m starting to sound like a Texan. No offense to any Texas listener, dad, but I am really, really proud of my state.

I think we’ve done you look at [00:24:00] the Southwest, you look at the West in general, and we’ve really managed this better than I think most states have. We know we’re early on. We’ve been wearing mass since early May. It’s been required like I think we’ve really been able to tap this down and to add to that. They did just in New Mexico, the Department of Education just came out with their reopening plans for August. And they did extensive modeling using the data scientists at Los Alamos National Labs. So the modeling and you can go online and see it. They looked at every like lots of different elements to see what was going to provide the less risk while still allowing students to come on campus. And actually, I think I can’t and I want to quote, get the quote wrong, but the percentage of students, the percentage of risk for students that were going to be completely online based on the hybrid model that they ended up going out with was, you know, in the single digits of risk to the student [00:25:00] based on how they were measuring this out. Just because you’re unless you’re completely quarantined at home, being online doesn’t mean you’re not going to have access to other people. So it was it was impressive. So it’s you know, they have a plan in place and they also have the option if any parent is not comfortable with their students going back on campus, that they can take their courses online. So that’s always going to be an option for parents to decide. But right now, it it just feels like New Mexico has done a really good job and getting ahead of it.

Phil: That’s actually a great point and one that doesn’t get discussed, not people having the option. And in this case, it’s good that schools and states are thinking about students. But what about faculty members?

Kevin: Right. And the a group in Texas that I was talking to just last week, system, mentioned that they want to have the possibility that a faculty member or a student could get sick and they like hybrid flexible as an option so that [00:26:00] either party could continue the coursework from any location. So it’s going to be interesting to see how that plays out. But they were thinking of both sides of the teaching and learning equation.

Jeanette: Now you have to look at states or even universities that are going to have and I hope I believe universities are looking at this. And I know the state of New Mexico, that average teaching age or the fourth, fourth, how do I put this the fourth highest of average teaching ages. So we have a fairly older teaching community in New Mexico. And so that’s that is being taken into consideration. And I wonder how universities are looking at that and the safety of, you know, their faculty and how they can protect them as well. We’ve been really kind of focused on the students and the student experience. But, you know, I think this also applies to faculty.

Phil: I think it’s rising in importance, is what I’m saying. This is a case where students are the ones that are looked at first and it’s almost [00:27:00] now starting to come to the forefront. The question that we’re talking about, what about faculty, ranch and faculty options, about teaching remotely or in person? And you’re starting to see your media coverage. Kevin mentioned discussion on a statewide system level, but I see it as rising and important. But we haven’t at all fully thought that through as a system about what this means for faculty choice. And we need to figure that out.

Kevin: Well, I don’t remember if it was the Purdue Protect Purdue plan or if it was the San Francisco state, but they’re the entity where I saw it set up a confidential survey so that H.R. could help people who feel that they’re in an at risk category, make choices and still be able to perform their functions, whether it be teaching or support staff on a campus or some other role from a distance and make sure they have the equipment they need, the training they need before the fall. And [00:28:00] so there are at least some institutions out there that are thinking about these things. And to your point, Phil, I’ve also started to see questions on list serves and in my own e-mail box about do we have any surveys of faculty related to their COGAT experiences the same way we’ve been looking at the student surveys. And so I’ll be on the lookout for those and maybe there’ll be another blog post.

Well, as a seque, although it’s a future seque, we have the opportunity on partnering on a survey and get us having input into how the questions are crafted for faculty.

Kevin: So we should definitely make sure that we ask some of these key questions or the survey that.

Phil: We’ll be able to share in about two months time, I believe. But so that’s where we are today. We’re heading into July 1st next week. And part of what that means is so many colleges are solidifying [00:29:00] their plans. We’re back into this. We talked to the episode Into Darkness that we’re necessarily heading into a term where it’s not going to be clear. There’s going to be a lot of second guessing, whatever choices made. And there’s going to be a high risk that changes that plans might have to change in the middle of the term. You might open up hybrid, but then have to shift to pull a remote depending on a spike in cases. So we’re starting to see this. But at the same time, we’re seeing some pretty fundamental adoption’s of hybrid course delivery. That’s got to have a longer term impact on higher education. So there’s a lot of moving parts.

It’s a fascinating time is all is what we’ve mentioned in the past. And we’ll definitely keep watching on this. Thanks for your time today. And Jeanette and Kevin’s great having this conversation.

Kevin: Good to talk to you. I’m gonna go give blood, so I’ll tell our listeners if you can [00:30:00] donate, do so.

Jeanette: Wonderful. Kevin. Yes. Have a good weekend, everyone.

Logo for MindWires COVID Transitions podcast

In this episode, Phil Hill, Jeanette Wiseman, Kevin Kelly, and Kevin’s cat discuss another pre-existing trend that has been accelerated by COVID. Team-based course design and teaching.


  • Phil Hill
  • Jeanette Wiseman
  • Kevin Kelly


Phil: Hello, welcome to COVID Transitions, where we discuss the various reactions by higher education to the COVID pandemic and how it’s changing education. I’m Phil Hill and I’m here with Jeanette Wiseman and Kevin Kelly. And it’s great to talk to you again.

Jeanette: Hey.

Kevin: Hey.

Phil: So this week I wanted to talk about a trend that’s really becoming more obvious to me. And when we talk about trends. One thing I’ve seen with covered is that it tends to accelerate pre-existing trends more than creating brand new trends.

So there was an article I wrote in 2012, it e-Literate, and it turned into an EDUCAUSE Review article. It was really about faculty teams and multi-functional teams doing course delivery of design. The point of the article was arguing against the false dichotomy of face-to-face versus online, saying that there was actually a  [00:01:00]landscape of models that were emerging and starting to change how higher education worked. And on the left axis, it showed that one of the biggest differences is defining who is actually creating and designing the course – that it’s no longer just individual faculty. Whether you have design teams that include faculty or even multi-functional teams that have media experts and structural designers, faculty all working together. Bring that to today’s conversation, and what I think we’re seeing quite a bit more is this team-based work for faculty. In particular, dealing with it and how do you handle such changes in the education environment when at the same time we have real resource restrictions that we’re working on?

That’s the topic that we wanted to discuss today, [00:02:00] whether this is a long term trend or not towards team-based course design and team-based teaching. To get started. Kevin, Jeanette, I’d like to hear, are you noticing the same trends? Are there any examples you can give on where you’re seeing more of a team-based approach as a reaction to how we get prepared for fall 2020 in particular?

Kevin: Well, I saw it happening a little bit before COVID hit, when the Pathways grant for the California Community Colleges, working on career and technical education courses online. They put together teams to come up with curriculum to give each other feedback. Again, it’s something I brought up in previous podcasts where they used to have that model in the army in the 40s, where they had a subject matter expert, a producer, and multi-media person. Basically they would put together learning experiences as a team. And [00:03:00] these days, we have put a lot on the instructor’s plate where they have to be paying attention to everything under the sun. And as we head toward things like hybrid flexible courses, they’re going to put additional cognitive load not just on the students, but on the teachers. It’s going to take a team in order to make these things happen.

Phil: You mentioned the example of the community colleges, the Pathways grant pre COVID. Have you noticed an uptick in this type of approach since since the pandemic has come around?

Kevin: On the POD listserv, the POD Network listserv, they have talked about having institutes where, again, faculty come together, they design their courses in a cohort, and they get feedback from other instructors, and they also get support from instructional designers. The only thing that I would mention is not every campus has instructional designers on staff. And so that becomes a challenge for certain [00:04:00] institutions that are smaller or have less fewer resources.

Phil: And Jeanette, what, have you noticed anything?

Jeanette: I think that what I’ve noticed is more of instructors working together. It’s not necessarily in team teaching, but looking at what their workload is and trying to be maybe a little bit more cognizant of sharing new ideas, lesson plans, things to try to help themselves and their peers during this time. That’s probably the extent I’ve seen things happen.

Kevin: and they’re willing to take ideas from other people, maybe more than they would have before.

Jeanette: Yes!

Kevin: For example, I just created a Google Doc that shows what a 50-minute HyFlex course might look like if you wanted to incorporate activities through it on the POD listserv as a way to answer a question from a colleague. And right now it’s got 20 to 25 people looking at it.  [00:05:00]I threw a Creative Commons license so people can use it. I’ve been getting great feedback about, ‘hey, this would take longer than you’ve estimated for a think pair share activity when you’re managing breakout rooms and all these different aspects of logistics. Never mind teaching and learning. And so going back to your point, Jeanette, I think faculty are more willing to take ideas from other people to construct learning experiences because they’re doing – and to Phil’s point about the COVID crisis accelerating these patterns – it’s because they don’t have time. To go through all the different trainings and different. So it’s beg, borrow and steal time again for instruction.

Jeanette: Yeah. You know, I was just going to say, that I think if you come from an education background, that’s something that’s taught to you really early on, is that beg, borrow and steal concept, and that there’s no shame in it. I think that if you don’t have education as a background, or you haven’t [00:06:00] really been trained to teach, which is what the majority of faculty in higher ed are, they don’t know that that’s an OK concept. I think that that’s something that’s really spreading, that, ‘hey, you’re not in this alone. We’re in this together. And it’s OK for you to beg, borrow, or steal anything from here. With Creative Commons license, of course, but that it’s an OK thing to do. And I will say that I think that’s a really positive step in the higher ed community.

Phil: Well, it’s interesting that if you go back to the original point of the article, it was arguing against the false dichotomy of face to face versus online. And that’s an ongoing theme that still needs to be stated today. But the team concept that I mostly was writing about back then was more within a department, or within an institution. More of a formal team. But what both of you are describing is more of a cross-institutional [00:07:00] informal team, where you’re seeing the sharing – people are willing to beg, borrow and steal. But quite often it goes across institutional boundaries and it uses listservs and common interest groups. And that is one characteristic of how this trend is playing out this year.

Kevin: Well, and it also happens just in workshop settings. For instance, when I did a workshop about interaction between students and faculty in online courses back at San Francisco State. The most exciting eventuality from that workshop was a fashion design instructor sitting next to an English instructor, and they decided to create a discussion forum for students from both classes to participate in, and had to sit outside both classes for FERPA reasons. But basically, they ended up having a conversation about school uniforms and equity between these two classes of students.

And it was all framed around [00:08:00] the fact that the fashion designer instructor was excited by the fact that the English instructor used two different deadlines in their discussion forums, one for the original post and another deadline for the replies. And that created this conversation where they ended up starting to work together, and created this collaborative project that neither of their courses would have had otherwise.

Phil: But there’s been resistance in this area before. The both of you alluded to of previously, there were faculty who felt that they didn’t want to beg, borrow or steal or they didn’t feel it was appropriate, or whatever the case may be, whereas today it’s much more accepted. Is that just a matter of necessity based on the economic climate and the move to online and hybrid? Or is there something more? Because what I’m hearing you guys describe is something that is [00:09:00] natural to faculty. They do like to collaborate when put in the right settings. So it’s not that they’re against collaboration, per se, but a lot of times they might not be in the right setting where that could flourish. And is it that we’re actually now putting people into these situations where they can collaborate?

Kevin: Where they have to collaborate. And the fact that every single instructor in higher ed had to put their course into a remote  emergency teaching and learning situation over the spring means that everybody was looking to someone else for how to do X, how do I do Y? I think you’re right. It’s the Michael Jordan definition of luck as a lot of practice plus opportunity. And we just gave every single instructor opportunity to interact with other faculty members.

Phil: So these are both positive views, Jeanette. Are you seeing this in general as a positive trend that’s good to see?

Jeanette: I think so. I think that there was more focus on teaching [00:10:00] because of COVID and how you teach. For instructors that maybe haven’t really looked at that, they were so into their research or within their discipline ideas, they’d been doing the same thing year after year. And this kind of made them stop and think about how they were instructing, how they were reaching their students, what was working and what wasn’t. It was part of that reflection process that I think in education is really drilled into you. But again, in other disciplines, you may not think about reflecting on your teaching as much. There was something that was really, I guess, looked at more in the spring, that maybe some of the other instructors haven’t been doing so much with their teaching practice as much.

Kevin: And that focus on teaching is another trend, Phil, that I think is amplified and accelerated due to this situation. So you’re going to have faculty members going through training over the summer that haven’t participated in online or face to face professional development at their institutions before.

We used [00:11:00] to call it the usual suspects where with 15 to 16 hundred faculty at San Francisco State University, we’d usually see around 100 in our workshops over the course of an academic year. Now you’re going to see triple, quadruple, maybe even half, the faculty at an institution going through, putting a heavy strain on the instructional design teams, again, if they have them, or they’re going to have to seek outside support for professional development or that instructional design.

Phil: Well, I think that’s an excellent point. The focus on getting more people involved, but even more than that, the focus on teaching and learning. So that’s rising in the priority list at the expense, quite honestly, of scholarship and research, at least in the near term.

Kevin: I’m going to push back just a little and say it’s finally getting the due that it deserved, because the scholarship and research aspects are generally focused on generating revenue [00:12:00] for the institution. And so that becomes a priority even at comprehensive institutions like San Francisco State or other Cal State system campuses. I don’t know what it’s like at UNM, but it’s definitely that change is not exactly as you characterized it.

Phil: Well, I’m not sure that we’re saying a different thing. Or at least I’m not understanding it quite yet. What I’m saying is if you look at the three, the priority list or how the balance and how they are in the mind of faculty members, that the ratios of change, due to the pandemic and due to necessity. And the teaching and learning mission, the teaching job has by necessity risen in the priority list. That’s essentially what I was saying.

Kevin: True. I guess the only thing I would add to that then, as a both-and proposition, is that that attention [00:13:00] to teaching and learning implies that faculty have to actually learn more about their craft instead of just jumping into the deep end and starting to swim.

Phil: Yes. Well, let me ask you a question about outside partners. So I’ve noticed that certainly a lot of the large publishers, when the pandemic hit in the March timeframe, the announcements of, ‘hey, we give you free access to courseware, we’re extending this through the end of summer, through the end of the calendar year.’ You have all these well-designed courseware available to you is the message they came out with. And certainly we’ve seen Coursera with their courseware initiative, as a MOOC provider, saying, ‘Hey, we’re making this available.’ And then you’re also seeing the OPM providers saying ‘we’re helping schools make this transition.’ So you’ve got these outside partners who are certainly offering to be part of this team as things are redesigned. [00:14:00] But what is the reaction like? How realistic is it that that type of teaming with outside providers is becoming a significant trend that will continue into the future?

Kevin: Well, I think it’s going to continue. I don’t know if it’s going to be at the same rate as the on campus-based collaborations. But when you consider the fact again, that some campuses just don’t have the staff levels that others do. They’re going to have to reach to outside groups and possibly leverage some of the CARES Act funds or something like that to do it. I know in another category that you didn’t quite touch on was professional development. So groups like the Association of College and University Educators are launching a course in effective online teaching practices.

And so a lot of campuses are adopting micro credentials for the summer to help faculty prepare for teaching in the fall using [00:15:00] that content and framework. But using local facilitators on their campuses to support the people with the cultural context of the institution.

Jeanette: I would only add that going back to the courseware and textbook providers, the instructors that I’ve talked to, if they were teaching an intro course before, maybe not using a major publisher or courseware provider title for whatever reason, looking at their fall courses, I know that I’ve talked to enough instructors that I feel like it is maybe a trend where they’re thinking, ‘OK, well, if there’s an online content available to me that’s been designed, and I really don’t know what I’m doing, and I can just slide it up into my LMS of choice or whatever the school’s using (which is sometimes not their choice), but if I can go ahead and use that content, I’m going to, because at least it’s a starting point for me.’ And especially for those schools that don’t have the instructional design [00:16:00] assistance, it’s there for them. And at least they can build upon it. So it seems like that’s a good starting point. And so there’s been some some instructors that I’ve talked to, that I know that they’re looking to change after using maybe the same textbook or reading material for years based only on their online content that’s available to them.

Kevin: And in some cases, they’re looking to open educational resources or open textbooks to reduce costs and increase learning equity for students.

Phil: For the most part, at least the way the three of us are describing it, there’s some real positive developments by this acceleration of a team-based approach that we’re seeing for teaching and learning. But what are the downsides to some of this move? And I’ll throw in one to get started. I’ve been a little bit skeptical with the free courseware offer because of the situation where a school or department or individual faculty might start adopting and using courseware. [00:17:00] And even if it’s a positive development through the fall, are they now stuck with this in 2021 and beyond when they don’t have the budget to be able to use these resources moving forward? So I think there’s a little bit of a risk going on that if they adopt resources that they can’t afford or won’t be available after the fall term. But what other downsides are there for this movement?

Kevin: I can see faculty might be hesitant to do too much where they’re not showing their unique value. For example, if they’re adopting materials like Khan Academy or something where it’s not only a textbook or something, but there’s a learning path implied there, there are problems for students to complete after watching a video and things like that, that they have to then go in and add value to that experience, if only to meet [00:18:00] the legal requirements of regular and substantive interaction, because it has to be from the instructor. They can’t just set it and forget it anymore. But I would say that the key there is that dystopic vision that we saw from Scott Galloway of mega universities pairing up Google and MIT or something like that to create like one section of math for the entire country. Then, you know, that’s where faculty are going to have to show their unique value, not only at their institution, but within their institution.

Phil: Is there also a risk of the lowest common denominator? What about the case of where you have faculty who have designed very engaging courses with very unique designs and methods of facilitating the course, but with the pandemic and the push for team based design, are we seeing any cases where the instructor might be getting told, ‘OK, sure, you’ve [00:19:00] done this engaging work yourself, but this is a way our whole department is going to work. So you need to come and do the same thing.’ So a standardization even when it’s not helpful. Are we seeing any of those cases?

Jeanette: I hope not.

Kevin: Yeah, I haven’t. And I know that academic freedom would probably prevail in that argument, but I haven’t seen that happening. And if anything, other instructors would adopt some of the effective practices from the veteran instructor.

Phil: Well, I like both of your optimism on that one. I guess I’m saying that’s something I’m concerned about. But I don’t necessarily, I’m not saying that I’ve seen it yet, but it is something that I’m concerned and watching for. A final question as we get into the fall. Of course, teaching and learning is not just about course design. It gets into the actual teaching practice itself, and the whole learning process of adapting the course based on how it’s going with students, and getting feedback from students. So [00:20:00] I don’t know if there’s an easy way to answer this, but how is this likely to play out in the fall in terms of some of the increased team coursework? Are faculty going to be sharing notes with each other as they teach, and adjusting and applying lessons learned? That you’ve learned that I can apply at my course. So should we expect this to actually continue into the fall with the iteration or the improvement of courses as they’re taught?

Kevin: If they’re working in cohorts now, there are some examples of those cohorts extending into the fall and having kind of discussion sections, so to speak, where they are sharing a reflection on how things went and what they would do differently. I know that’s part of the model for that group I mentioned before, the Association of College and University Educators, where they have online discussions, where faculty share their reflections with each other about what worked and what didn’t work. But [00:21:00] in terms of the summer offerings that a lot of campuses are spinning up to support faculty or preparing for fall, it makes sense that they would create some sort of continuing effort for the people to interact with one another. And one other thing that I’ve just started to see happen is leaning on student surveys at the institution level and sharing the common instrument so that all instructors can ask students the same questions and whether or not they share that data out with all the instructors that will remain to be seen.

Phil: And Jeanette, what’s your general view of the outlook of how fall will continue? Or are you generally optimistic about how this might make a long term improvement, or what do you think it will be like during the middle of a course?

Jeanette: I think a lot of it’s going to be dependent on what Kevin said, how much of this the cohort or the organization of faculty is [00:22:00] happening at the institutional level, or maybe even within a discipline. I think once those are established, and a cohort or a group of people are working together, and you’re sort of leaning on them, the war story where you’re able to go in and you make a friend for life type of thing, where you’re going to continue to want to work through them.

I think it just needs to be established now and it needs to be encouraged by, likely by the institution to start it and keep it going. And then I think it could be a long term effect that’s happening.

But it’s, I think it’s how an institution is engaging with that instructor right now to help them with their course. And I don’t know if a lot of institutions have the bandwidth to do that right now, but I think it’s a core piece of the success of the fall moving forward.

Phil: So we have a real opportunity here, as there’s been a required, or necessity to focus on teaching and learning, to focus on adapting quickly for the fall. But [00:23:00] part of what we’re talking about is the the nature of this opportunity quite often lies in these cohorts, these communities that are being formed where instructors and staff can rely on each other and build connections moving forward. So this is a case where it could be a long term, not just a long term trend, but we could be establishing these communities that actually help over the long term to improve teaching and learning. So we will definitely keep watching for this, including seeing how it plays out in the fall time and the learning process itself. But thanks, Kevin and Jeanette. It’s great talking to you this week, and I hope you have a good weekend.

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In this episode, Phil Hill, Jeanette Wiseman, and Kevin Kelly discuss the concept of Chronocentrism as applied by John Watson to an education context. What if a lot of the common predictions we have turn out to be wrong?


  • Phil Hill
  • Jeanette Wiseman
  • Kevin Kelly


Phil: Welcome to COVID Transitions. I’m Phil Hill, and I’m here with Jeanette Wiseman and Kevin Kelly talking about the transitions that higher education is going through due to COVID-19. It’s been a good week for me. I will say leading off that I was able to go away for the first time and had a meal, a lunch with my wife. It’s part of our anniversary. Out in a real restaurant with real server, so it’s been an exciting week for me. How are you guys doing?

Kevin: I’m doing just fine. I had a birthday this week and doing some good stuff this weekend, taking a class over Zoom. If you can believe it, for how to fingerpicking the blues.

Jeanette: Really? Oh, that’s impressive.

Kevin: We’ll see.

Jeanette: We were hoping to go camping this weekend, but still in New Mexico you can’t camp unless [00:01:00] you find a private campground. The overnights are still not allowed, which we were going to do. But it is so hot here that I think we’re just going to stay home. Except for if we could, we could. Maybe we’ll send the girls outside.

Phil: Well, we had our lunch in ninety five degree heat. I did not complain since I was just so happy to be out with other humans. What we’d like to talk about today builds on something that we mentioned two weeks ago. Two weeks ago we were discussing the community colleges and how their enrollments seem to be going up, and then we also looked at Arizona State University showing dramatically increased enrollment for the summer. And at the same time, it seems like the conventional wisdom had become, based on surveys, that enrollment was going to be dropping somewhere between 10 and 30 [00:02:00] % across all of higher education. We asked the question “at a certain point, we need to question, are these surveys right? We shouldn’t take that those are gospel.” We might be developing a conventional wisdom that’s just wrong. And at the same time, there was an article that came out yesterday from John Watson at the Evergreen Group, a consulting and analysis firm that works mostly in K-12. But I think this post was excellent. “Will post pandemic school be different? The case against.” And essentially what he does is refer to an article that came out in the Atlantic that essentially says, “I predict your predictions are wrong.” And it points out how often we actually look at our times as unique, and that we’ve never faced anything like it. And so there’s [00:03:00] a tendency to overestimate the significance of long term changes based on our current crises. And we’ll go over some more of the details.

John took the argument to bring up – what if so many of these arguments are wrong, and that we’re going to be a lot more normal than we thought we would be once we get into the fall or even beyond that, that we’re not just having fundamental transformations? I think it’s an interesting question and very interesting article. And point out that Moody’s came out today with their estimate of enrollment for the fall. They’re predicting that total enrollment goes up. Now they’re predicting that the rough enrollment revenue, or tuition revenue, goes down overall, but enrollment could actually be up. We have these contradictory signals. I’d like to explore – what do you guys think in terms of how significant [00:04:00] are the long lasting changes that are going to come out of this pandemic? But let’s start out with that idea from a high level. Jeanette, what’s your initial reaction to that argument?

Jeanette: So my thought is more along the lines of the Atlantic article, if you read it, because we’re all human and we crave social connection. And I think, Phil, you said it nicely when you started off, that this was a good week for you just because you were able to go out and be among other people that maybe aren’t related to. One, your lovely wife of 31 years.

Phil: And for the record, I want to state that I was very happy to be with her. That was not my point.

Jeanette: That’s right. So but that’s just we’re social creatures. We want to see people. We want to be with people. I think that what I’ve seen this week, at least in Albuquerque, it’s been respectful. [00:05:00] Anywhere you go, everybody’s in masks. But I’ve seen an uptick of people in the stores. It doesn’t seem as scary. And I can see how New Mexico is starting to open up more next week in terms of retail and things like that. There’s just there’s a desire to be with people. So I think on a high level, those things make sense. Absolutely.

Phil: Kevin, what what are your reactions? Your thoughts?

Kevin: Well, it makes me think of the article I wrote about the Edge of Chaos and how it’s an opportunity moment for education to make bigger changes than they might. And Watson’s statements that, ‘hey, public education is the way it is for many reasons, many of which are difficult to change.’ So what I always think is what is the cost of not making changes when these opportunities arise? We have to wait for the [00:06:00] next pandemic to make some substantive change, around seat time being the reason that we generate revenue instead of student success. California has already started moving in the direction of funding being predicated on student completion as opposed to student enrollment. I’m interested in seeing how we can drive some of those things forward a little more, even though I agree. And that’s why in my article I didn’t say that it would happen. I just said it was an opportunity for change to happen. But I’m interested and hopeful that we can still find some ways to turn the ship a little bit before we hit the iceberg.

Jeanette: I think that’s going to happen. I think that even there may not be massive change. But one thing, from the least a faculty and a teacher standpoint, is there were a lot of teachers who maybe were always resistant, and instructors resistant [00:07:00] to using technology to teach courses for whatever reason. And there is a million of them. And because they were forced to do this, they probably found some things that they really like about that and those types of things. Yeah, there’s gonna be change for good. It could have been the way they’re addressing certain teaching habits or learning needs that they may be had in the past. And I kind of feel like those things are just going to snowball into maybe a larger effect where technology is becoming more important to teachers that were looking at it before as a teaching tool.

Phil: And if you go back and look at the Atlantic article, I like the way they set this up. It said, “In 1974, the sociologist Jim Bowers coined the term Chronocentrism, the belief that one’s own time is  paramount, that other periods pale in comparison.”

But what you’re describing is not so much ‘Our times are paramount and change will happen [00:08:00] no matter what we do.’ You’re both really talking about the opportunity for change. And even the hope that some changes will accelerate, and I assume some that we try to minimize other changes. But it gets to the question, not just everything is gonna change. We have no choice about it, but it’s also, ‘Well, what are the changes that we either hope or even want to advocate for sticking with us as we move forward?’

You mentioned the comfort with technology. Let’s start with a question. Given everything that we know right now, what are the changes you guys see that you think this is happening in the fall and it’s going to continue, and we’ll look back, let’s say, five years from now, and say 2020 was a period where we accelerated X? And that is now with us and it’s stuck. What are the changes that you guys think [00:09:00] or predict will stick with us at least for five years or more based on what’s happening this year?

Jeanette: I think there’s going to be an increase in hybrid or HyFlex classes and courses that are being offered. I think that teachers are going to start seeing the benefit of a flipped classroom and how they teach. I think that there’s been so much literature and research done about how instructors often teach the way they were taught, and this forced them to kind of look at those teaching habits and change them. And I think that’s probably going to stick. And I think the other one is greater use of technology that’s institution-wide like the LMS. Kevin, what do you think?

Kevin: I agree with all of that and I will raise you equity, raise you one equity. I think that the the whole concept of being more aware of students needs at multiple [00:10:00] levels as learners. And that starts with access to the technology. But even this week, with all the tumultuous activity, in Wednesday’s session at the California Community College chancellor’s office, the little webinars they do every week. Chancellor Oakley said ‘we cannot hide behind the veil of collegiality when it comes to racial equity.’ I think equity is going to stay in the forefront of mind space for the next five years at least.

And I do believe that that means it will translate into actions that people take that they normally don’t, whether it be checking their course for equity with things like the rubric that Peralta Community College District created, or taking the time to understand what students’ needs are, and helping meet them before students show up for classes. Because that’s a really hard time for students to gain new skills that they’re going to need to succeed in a class, on the first day of class. We [00:11:00] need to be starting to prepare students with the technology they need. We heard that student during the student Senate of the California Community College webinar. One student said it took a month for her to get the Chromebook from campus a month after courses restarted. She was borrowing other students’ or neighbors’ or relatives’a laptops in order to continue her studies. And if we’re looking at community college, especially as a way to increase upward mobility and give students a chance to get some economic stability, especially in this time where there’s a lot of unemployment, we can’t afford to go back to the way things were.

Jeanette: I agree. You know, what I also think is that I think the health of an institution in the future is going to be based on how they’re treating equity issues and how much they’re doing student outreach. If you’re going to a school and competition may be fierce, [00:12:00] especially as things are moving online, and your school’s not really paying attention to what your needs are, you’re going to probably find another school.

And I think that’s it’s going to help those institutions that are really recognizing equity issues that, well, I think really thrive in the coming years.

Phil: Well, let me bring the conversation down a little bit. It sounds like that’s my role today, since you guys are both optimistic. I was in a session with Future Trench Forum with Brian Alexander yesterday, and George Station asked me a question about how optimistic or pessimistic I was on the access issue and accessibility. When we talked about the equity-based access issues, you know, access for all, I said, ‘well, I think that the conversation around equity issues is absolutely increasing and won’t go away. You’re getting college leaders talking about the subject [00:13:00] quite a bit.’ But the immediate context of our conversation, if I recall, was about the fact that so much of what we learned about supporting different ethnic groups and first generation students comes down to support outside the classroom, advice, not just class activities, but the broader support network, that that’s what’s crucial. Yet at the same time, that’s what institutions are cutting quite often right now. Do they really have a strong belief in doing that type of investment in these economic times to make meaningful improvements to equity? I believe George’s argument is – he was concerned that in the name of equity, we’ll talk about things, but there won’t be strong changes. So I’d like to challenge. Are we going to see actual progress with investment and things that seem to work, such as general advising?

Jeanette: Again, I’m [00:14:00] going to go back to the reason why I think it’s going to happen, and that it’s going to be end up being tied to retention and revenue. And I think more than ever, that’s going to be the crux of it, that schools are going to need to be able to recognize. These are issues where I agree with you. And what is really worrisome, I think, about the spring – and let’s see what happens going into the fall – is the accessibility issues. How people feel like that’s not as important during this emergency time, and that, I hope, changes for fall. But I worry about how many students, and I think having Kevin can speak to this much like in a larger state that I can, but there are a lot of students that were not being served over the spring for whatever reason. And we’ll see what happens there.

Kevin: Yeah, from some of the surveys that I’ve reviewed, some of the populations or some populations of students who did not feel as supported by their [00:15:00] campuses in the spring were non-binary students of color and students with disabilities. Both of those groups felt like the campuses didn’t do enough to support them and meet their needs.

Kevin: I would add – not only Jeanette’s point about some people thinking that ‘hey, I’ve got so much to do, accessibility is just one more thing that I can’t fit on my plate right now.’ But there’s also that group of people who are finding that it’s a lot of work to make every piece of content and every activity and every tool you use to be accessible. And so some people will be kind of frozen like a deer in the headlights. They won’t know exactly how to get started because there’s so much they perceived to do. In a workshop that I gave to faculty about putting their courses online, you could see the tears forming in one teacher’s eyes when she said, [00:16:00] ‘do you really mean that these things that you’re doing, I have to do to every document in my course. There’s like a hundred.’

She she was both visibly upset because of the amount of work, but also because she felt that she was providing all these obstacles.

Phil: That also goes back to the support need, we can’t just rely on instructors to handle the entire set of problems on their own.

Kevin: True.

Phil: We need to have support staff who can either provide a lot of this conversion of materials, audio, video, different different paths for students to take, particularly those with disabilities or at the very least training during professional development to help instructors get the job done.

That’s I guess what I’m worried about – it’s sort of twofold. Instructors, faculty are going to say this is a lot of extra work and now I’ve got to do even more. And at the same time, [00:17:00] there is an important issue for schools to invest in areas at the time where most of their budgets are getting cut. So there’s room for pessimism here. My view was that in the short term, I’m pessimistic. I think things are not going well, just as you said with the survey. Students with disabilities, they’re not getting served well right now. And I don’t believe they’re going to be served very well in the fall. But over time, I think it’s becoming a subject, just like equity, that institutions can’t avoid. My hope or my prediction – and they’re tied up together – is that in the long run, even three years down the road, that we will see a material improvement in both of these areas, not just in words, but the actual actions in investment. I hope you’re right about that. The retention type of issues will ensure that this happens. But short term, [00:18:00] I’m pessimistic. Long term, I’m optimistic on these issues.

Kevin: I have to push back a little bit first, before we move on to a different topic. Because with the different groups I work with, I’ve got an example of a public community college in Southern California and a private four year university here in Northern California, both of which are planning online events for faculty to learn how to teach in whatever format they’re going to be using over the fall. And both have large sections of the coursework related to both equity and accessibility. So while it’s true that there needs to be a greater investment in staff to support faculty, maybe harkening back to the World War II days, when you had these instructional design teams, where you had a subject matter expert, you had a developer, you had a producer, maybe to diffuse some of the workload for faculty who keep having everything piled on them. But [00:19:00] right now, I see active efforts to address these challenges head on before the fall. And so it probably is always going to be the case. More can be done. But I don’t think that people are waiting for the budgets to reconstitute before tackling.

Phil: Actually I like disagreement, I want to build on this given what is common between the two schools that you just mentioned. I don’t know them by name, but you’re essentially saying these are the schools where you actually help them out with some sort of PD training or or advice on how to get the job done? Correct.

Kevin: True. And yet they both had developed their programs before pulling me in to help. So accessibility was on their radar and equity was on their radar before I even entered the conversation.

Phil: I’m not arguing that you created the solution or the awareness. What I’m saying is it’s a selection bias. There could be a [00:20:00] selection bias going on. It’s not just the schools who are already thinking about this. The question is broad based, what’s going to happen across higher education? I mean, I certainly hope that your case for more short term optimism is right. But I just I’m questioning if there’s a selection bias as well.

Kevin: It could be that. Birds of a feather flock together, so I probably could be hanging out with people who feel around the same way I do on these issues. But I will be doing an Online webinar or online keynote for Des Moines Area Community College, so I’m going to check in with them and see what other programming they have in store for faculty preparing for the fall and see if it’s different in the Midwest.

Phil: Let’s take this a little bit of a different direction, even though it’s interrelated. Zoom U. What’s going to happen to the dominant usage of synchronous Zoom [00:21:00] sessions as the major use case of how schools have taken their courses online or hybrid? Are we going to see the over – I’m being pejorative here, but I believe strongly in it – are we going to see the continuation of the overuse of Zoom as the primary way to have courses either online or the hybrid design, the online component of hybrid? Will that continue throughout the fall? Or will it start going down significantly?

Jeanette: I think that Zoom, the use of Zoom was a crutch that people had to rely on. I’m hoping, I don’t know, but I hope that it starts to see a decrease because it’s not good instructional design in most cases. And with that, I hope that there is going to be an increase, at least in the value of instructional design and helping [00:22:00] faculty with their courses. And when you look at it that way, then there has to be a decrease in usage overall for each of the courses, at least not relying on it for the majority of instruction.

Kevin: And you see in some of the threads of conversations and professional developer listservs and on forums and things like that, that they are having challenges with formats even like HyFlex, which are meant to provide flexibility and student choice. Because they’re concerned that faculty will see it as a way to prioritize in-person lectures like they’d been getting all along, and they really want to put it in an equal emphasis on asynchronous instruction, as Jeanette’s suggesting. So I think that the intent is there. I think the challenge will be, maybe I’ll be more pessimistic like Phil for a moment, and say that the timeline from spring 2020 to fall 2020 may not be long enough, even though [00:23:00] there are an infinite number of points between zero and one. You probably don’t have enough time for a faculty member to become highly conversant with the technologies for asynchronous instruction. So they may be relying on Zoom more than they should, but less than they did in the spring. It’ll be a slower on ramp than, let’s say, what people would hope.

Phil: And this will get to long term changes, in my opinion, that the pain of Zoom U. It did help us, that we need to acknowledge it did help. The remarkable transformation this spring, in three to four weeks time moving online. But it’s got to be pulled back. And the balance, it’s got to go on ecreasing the synchronous video methods and increasing asynchronous methods. And even when you use video to do it asynchronously, there’s a lot of solid pedagogical usage of asynchronous video. I also believe that the usage is going to drop this [00:24:00] fall for Zoom and the other synchronous video methods. But here’s where I’m optimistic, because this is getting debated so much in all circles of higher education that it’s hard to avoid the subject. I think that there’s only positive outcomes from the public discussion about Zoom U and about how, by and large, the online courses of spring just have been disappointing to students and we can’t keep this up. This is a case where I think that even if there’s negative discussions, it’s going to lead to a longer term improvement in teaching and learning, because you just can’t avoid the subject, where people even understand pedagogical usage of asynchronous versus synchronous – that’s now becoming part of the lexicon. Even for faculty who had never taught online before. So I tend to be optimistic in this regard that we’re going to see improvements long [00:25:00] term.

Kevin: That I’ll agree with. I think that we’re seeing not only with respect to technology use, but the concept of teaching and learning, as you said, are becoming part of what faculty consider. And when you can think about the fact that not many faculty learned to teach before they are hired to teach. It’s exciting to be in a space where even though it’s a pandemic and it’s chaotic, the fact that faculty are considering the needs of the students and the strategies that they can adopt to help students learn better. Those are all wins.

Phil: All right. Let me ask you to a question that goes on the other side of the coin. What changes that you’ve heard being discussed about higher education do you think won’t happen? Too many people are talking about this, I don’t think this is going to happen. And I’ll lead off this discussion with one that I hear quite a bit now, Plexiglass as a primary method [00:26:00] of controlling physical spaces. I predict that will not last. By and large, and it’s not going to be effective, and it’s not realistic, even in the fall, to use Plexiglass as a primary method of safety between faculty and students or throughout the system. I don’t believe that the Plexiglass is going to be a major change moving forward.

Jeanette: I’m sort of laughing. I totally agree. I have a 17 year old as my oldest. And there is no way. I think one thing, that if you know about older teens and young adults, is that they crave touch probably more than anyone. And they’re just going to get around the Plexiglass. It’s kind of funny to me, actually, to imagine that and actually imagine it working. I just I don’t see it happening at all.

Kevin: Even at the taqueria or the grocery store where they do have a Plexiglas barrier to protect the [00:27:00] people who are working at this time in history. People still go around it to have themselves heard. Because you’re not only speaking through a mask, but also a Plexiglas sheet. And I can’t, I can’t imagine configurations … It’s going to seem like your classrooms are a labyrinth, or a maze of different configurations, even restaurants. That part I hadn’t heard as a trend or an option.

I just know that you are probably going to see fewer students in the classrooms, possibly switching the days. So if you have a Tuesday, Thursday class, half the class goes on Tuesday and half goes on Thursday. And the other time you either squeeze it all into one time space that you only need one or you’re you’re forced to go online. But I could see those Plexiglass fishbowls that everybody could wear them over their heads like scuba old-school [00:28:00] masks when you walked in along the bottom and those giant domes over your head. That could be a way to accomplish it at a much more individualized and cheaper level.

Phil: Personalize Plexiglass. I like that, personalization. This gets back to the original conversation. I think that what we’re saying is the physical methods of addressing the pandemic, and what might be longer lasting. You’re much more likely to see changes due to hybridization of higher education, fewer students in class because the courses have been designed to have various options, or to have some face to face and a lot more online. Those are going to be the changes that likely impact not just the fall, but long term, that we’re going to see that as long term changes. The Plexiglass, in and there are a lot of articles predicting this, I just see that [00:29:00] to be a mostly a waste of time that maybe money gets into the liability front. Maybe it will make some schools feel that they have some protection, from a legal standpoint, but I don’t see that happening and particularly, as Jeanette said, it’s not just that it’s unrealistic, but in particular for younger people.

Kevin: I just can’t see that working out, to go back to students with disabilities. Somebody in a wheelchair is going to have to navigate around these Plexiglas sheets. And are they going to be on wheels so you can move them around the classroom and then you have to clean them? Because you’re going to be touching the thing that’s on wheels. I mean, it’s creating more work.

Jeanette: Yeah, it’s kind of ridiculous. I really I, I don’t know if our schools do that, Phil. I just it seems like also such a waste of money. I hope they’re not.

Phil: I read articles about schools – I don’t know if they’ve spent the money yet, but yes, I see in articles where schools are saying they’re spending a lot of [00:30:00] money on bringing in physical barriers, primarily Plexiglass, and reconfiguring classrooms and dining halls to use that. So yes, I am reading quite a bit about them using it there. I know this is going to harm our ability to get a Plexiglas manufacturer or sponsorship of the podcast, but it’s going to be a waste of money.

Jeanette: That’s a California company that people used. You know, it’s too bad.

Phil: It’s too bad. Well, it’s been a great conversation. But going back to the original premise, we’re talking about so many changes that are going to affect higher education forever.

But most likely, this Chronocentrism that we have means that we’re overestimating how many changes are really going to be with us long term. And certainly, at least among us and the stuff we’re talking about, in part there’s an aspiration here that we hope happens. The hybridization [00:31:00] of higher education is a trend that we do think is going to accelerate and stay with us and hopefully have a much greater emphasis. And true solutions to improve equity based access and disability-based accessibility from a long term, and that these become subjects that schools can’t avoid in the future. We’ll keep watching to see where things go. It’s been a great conversation and we’ll talk to you guys next week.

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In this episode, Phil Hill, Jeanette Wiseman, and Kevin Kelly discuss some of the practical issues faced by students, instructors, and institutions when implementing HyFlex models.


  • Phil Hill
  • Jeanette Wiseman
  • Kevin Kelly


Phil: Hi, I’m Phil Hill. And welcome to COVID Transitions. This week, we have a special episode that’s focused on the growing interest in hybrid formats for fall 2020. And specifically with the HyFlex model that’s being discussed at many campuses. We wanted to take some time to address some reader questions and in particular, look at the practical implications of preparing students as well as faculty and course designers for these new methods. Jeanette Wiseman and Kevin Kelly had an opportunity to talk about these details. We hope you enjoyed this episode.

Jeanette: Hey, Kevin.

Kevin: Hey, how are you today?

Jeanette: Okay. I feel like we need to have a little theme music playing at this point, since Phil’s not here to do it.

Kevin: Well and his voice is so resonating, so we’ll have to do our best.

Jeanette: How has your week gone?

Kevin: It has been a little bit nutty. He had two online events for over a hundred people, and my niece was supposed to graduate on Tuesday. When I sent her a text saying I was thinking about her, and I know it was supposed to be her big day, and we’ll figure out a way to celebrate your achievement. She said, Thanks, Uncle Kevin. It means a lot. Praying that COVID clears up by my college graduation.

Jeanette: Now, my godson graduated from the Naval Academy last week, and we were really looking forward to helping him celebrate that. So not being able to do that was disappointing for sure. So what were your webinars about this week, Kevin?

Kevin: One was with the group, I’m on the board, the Association of Authentic, Experiential and Evidence Based Learning paired up with e-Portfolios Australia.

Jeanette: Well, sounds like you were busy. Also had some blog posts and some really good comments and questions on this blog post this week.

Kevin: Yeah. And I think one of the most interesting questions stemmed from the blog post about HyFlex course design, and the person said, hey, our campus is considering HyFlex, and you have a very compelling bullet point about preparing students. But what does that look like? What should we be doing to prepare students for success in the HyFlex environment? And that to me said, OK, well, I guess we’ve got to put some more out there.

Jeanette: Yeah, absolutely. We can.

Kevin: Something we can discuss today.

Jeanette: I think so I think there’s a lot of people really curious about not only how did they do the HyFlex or the hybrid classes and planning for fall, but what EdTech students need to know. And what did they need to do to be prepared coming into really different learning environment? So do you have any pointers for instructors and schools looking to try to make sure that their students are ready for something that’s gonna be different?

Kevin: I do. I do. And I also have pointers for students themselves. I know we have an active listening group of students who love this podcast and it’s growing in popularity. For teachers and campuses, I think there are a couple of things they can do. One is to break it down. I don’t think it’s enough to put in a course catalog. That, of course, is going to be fully online or hybrid flexible. I think we need to define what that means and why students would want to choose different formats as their approach to taking that class, because they do have the control coding that Spider-Man comic book. With that power comes responsibility. So I think that’s important for students to know what work each format will entail, such as asynchronous learning will require them to do a little bit more on their own. They’ll be more self directed if they’re in the synchronous learning environment. They may have to participate more than they normally do, especially if they’re introverts. And so it’s important for students to know not only what choices they have, but why they might want to make them.

Jeanette: Absolutely. It seems like there should be more than just some knowledge gained from my course catalog. Now, what else would students really need to know? Well, going into these different formats, let’s take the HyFlex, what should students know and be prepared walking into that course compared to a fully online one?

Kevin: They should know that they have the choice each and every class session to participate how they want either synchronous, online, asynchronous, or if their campus is planning to open, which some are, then they could even show up in the classroom. And those all have different ramifications if they’re planning on showing up in the classroom. Are they going to be living off campus or are they going to find a dorm room? What’s what’s this physical distancing going to look like? How to small group activities work and when you can only be six feet apart. And again, each person has their own needs based on their home situation, their work life and their academic goals. Making those choices and knowing what it means work wise for the academic setting will help them be more successful because they’re not just sitting in the room and absorbing what somebody says, but they’re active participants.

Jeanette: Now, you know, it’s a good point. I was also thinking, before COVID and before I think that there were definitely different types of students or characteristics of students that you would say, OK, this is a person I have good characteristics or good reasons for taking courses online, primarily online. Now, you know, this spring and potentially into the fall. That’s those choices aren’t necessarily there if you want to continue your education. A lot of cases you’re going to be taking courses online. So with that in mind, and it’s not really a learning style, it’s more of like adapting your learning style. Are there things that students should be doing to prepare for that? Are there things that students could do to help them be more successful in those types of classrooms, do you think?

Kevin: Absolutely. And in the blog post I’m writing now, that hopefully will launch early next week. I say that the COVID-19 experience has reminded the entire world that some things like viruses are beyond our control, but some things we can control. And so students should think about what they can control themselves. One is literally themselves their health. A lot of students talk about not exercising as much, drinking more. Those things all impact their ability to learn, their ability to be a little bit more organized. So I recommend for students to use paper, digital calendars to plan out each week and how they’re going to tackle the learning experience, getting focused, getting connected with other students. That can also optimize their attitudes by being more intentional learners, by being more motivated, by being more active, and they can optimize their environments to some extent. And so, you know, some of the surveys that I analyzed showed that students don’t have quiet study spaces. About a quarter to a third don’t have somewhere they can go. And so it might require negotiating a communal quiet time with your family or your roommates or either cheap earplugs or if you can afford it. Noise canceling headphones to block out things that are going to be distractions. There is a science around interruptions and how we lose what we gain while we’re learning if we’re interrupted. And it’s similar to the work experience. If you have someone prairie dog over the cubicle wall. You end up having to restart something that you had begun, maybe even go back further to recapture the thoughts that you were engaged in at that moment. And so whatever students can do to create quiet spaces, organize their space. So it’s not so cluttered and probably most importantly, gaining some new skills, time management skills, self directed learning skills and even study skills like spacing out the study time instead of cramming it all into big three hour blocks.

Jeanette: And then what about course design? Are there ways that instructors can be designing their courses that would benefit students, especially near to this format?

Kevin: Well, definitely. If it’s whether it’s HyFlex online or something in between, the more organized you can be, the more consistent you can be. And the more you communicate with your students about what’s expected each week, that’s all going to help students. And I would say we want to go beyond discussions, of course, design and also talk about course facilitation. A while ago, I did a trio of blog posts around course design rubrics. And I challenged all of those rubric designers to include more about what it’s like once the students actually show up in the class. It’s great to make it structured, to make it accessible for students with disabilities, to make sure there are lots of interaction opportunities. But then you have to facilitate all that. You have to guide students through the process of learning. You can’t just set it and forget it.

Jeanette: I think there’s a lot of people that are forgetting that, to be honest. You know, I there’s so many people, it seems to me, you know, talking to instructors that they’re so focused right now in the design of the course and trying to get everything in there.

I don’t know if you’ve had this experience, but I do think that they’re forgetting the work it’s going to take to facilitate. I thought, you know, I don’t know if you mentioned this on that blog post or if it wasn’t a conversation, if it was a podcast or something else we’re talking about. But you had some really good point. It was just like discussion threads that I thought was really interesting about starting making sure that there were assignments for when you start and when you need to respond to make sure that guided discussions are really strong in most cases, which are gonna be important. A lot of these classes.

Kevin: Having two due dates. I picked that up from a faculty member who’s passed away now. Gail Weinstein at San Francisco State. But it’s really helped my conversations because students submit their original post by, let’s say, Wednesday, and then they submit their replies by the following Monday. So they have time to make it a conversation instead of what I call the Tower of Babble, whereas just a bunch of people lobbing posts and replies into a pot and hoping it sticks.

Jeanette: But the other one, when he said. Yeah, I agree with x, right? Yeah.

Kevin: Or could you ever find good jobs? Smiley face. There’s another one. But the other thing too. To your point is having more instructions and more examples of what replies should look like. We give students a lot of ideas about what their posts should look like, what they should include. We might even have some rubric criteria about what we’re expecting. We want you to support your argument with two sources and blah, blah. But then when it comes to replying to other students, it says replied to other students. And that’s just not enough.

Jeanette: So, Kevin, because we were talking about HyFlex that I know even before COVID at San Francisco State implemented this and some of their courses, and I think it was more due to space constraints. If I’m correct me if I’m wrong with that. And since you were there for that and you’re still an instructor at San Francisco State. Can you give us some insight of how that was accepted by the students, what your actions were to both and students? I think instructors and maybe even the administration, it be interesting to see how this was done pre-COVID, and and do you think it’s going to be different post-COVID?

Kevin: Well, so first you had one particular class adopted, a quasi HyFlex approach because of space constraints. My own department did it for a different reason. The class that addressed space constraints was an introduction to marketing class, lower division undergraduate course with hundreds of students. Our department went HyFlex for the entire graduate program in instructional technologies and that was to address the needs of working professionals that might not be able to get to campus at 4 p.m. or even 7 p.m. based on their work load, and especially in the Bay Area, when the startup culture pushes people to work 24/7.

Jeanette: So the decision, the traffic to make you may be trying to get to San Francisco can be tough, too.

Kevin: Yeah. Luckily, the the main campus is in the southwest corner down by the zoo, which is not in the northeast corner where downtown is. So it’s not as impacted by traffic unless you have to go through downtown to get there soon. But traffic. Yeah, it’s it’s a it’s a pain. Not as bad as L.A., but it’s bad. But in terms of the student reactions, I think students recognize that it was a different learning experience and they were able to appreciate some of the pros along with the cons. For example, my colleague Brian Beatty, he wrote a book about HyFlex Course Design, and he’s got a chapter about student experience, where he quotes students that he surveyed about their experience, I think goes over three. Graduate students and, you know, students would say things like, hey, I had less interaction with my peers because I chose the asynchronous route for whatever reason. But the fact that I was writing reflections about my learning process actually made me a stronger learner. And so it’s incumbent on us to to let students know that there are pros and cons to every approach and HyFlex. And again, not only let them know what the workload might be like for each pathway, and they can choose a different pathway each time, but also what they’re going to get and miss out on so they can make informed choices.

Jeanette: Were the students actually showing up on campus or were most people just taking it a synchronously? Like, what was the majority of students doing and did it matter at the end of how the instructors were interacting with those students? Do you think it.

Kevin: Oh, so I’ll tackle those in a random order because it’s going okay. Stream of consciousness. Fewer students chose to come in person because they have that flexibility. And that’s what students really desire is convenience and flexibility, whether it’s because they are working or in the case of some of the students in that intro to marketing class, their IP addresses for those who are familiar with that term showed that they were on campus. They just didn’t walk from their dorm to the classroom. They they preferred to watch it on Zoom instead of going to the classroom. But to answer some of your other questions about the experience of this, the students. Stuck with largely the pathway they chose at the beginning of the semester, so they didn’t change pathways as much as one might think. They stuck with one and kept with it. Most students had similar experiences. All the literature has shown that students are equally successful in whatever format they choose. However, and this calls back to something. Michel Pacansky-Brock brought up an email this chain this week that it’s really about how we design and facilitate these courses. It’s not about student abilities. And so it’s easy first for faculty who are choosing HyFlex or if the campus chooses it, for them to focus heavily on the synchronous experience and kind of let the async fall off and be that set it and get it type mentality. And so students in an asynchronous environment where they’re not challenged or they don’t get a lot of feedback are going to do less well because they’re not getting that same level of attention from the instructor or their peers.

Jeanette: So just if you were to design a hybrid class and pretty much the only difference that you had, maybe this becomes not HyFlex, but that you just want to have and recorded yourself when you were maybe on campus, if you happened to be on campus or when you were doing a course in and you posted it on there. Does that just naturally become a HyFlex class?

Kevin: It does make creating a HyFlex classes a little easier because again, you if you have to record yourself twice, once in person, and then second as a kind of a Zoom recording or a Camtasia recording or screen Castomatic recording, whatever you choose to use if you have to do it twice. And that’s a lot more work. So if you know that you’re going to go HyFlex, it does make sense to say, OK, well, I’ll capture this in person experience and I will actually plan ahead and make sure that that in-person experience takes into account that some people are going to be watching the recording, the Lily, Maryland conference when virtual this spring. And so I was grateful to have the opportunity to give a presentation, and I actually made comments during my presentation. For those of you who were watching the recording of this, here’s something you can do. And so those instructors who are teaching HyFlex courses will want to make those side comments while they are facilitating a live session just so that the people in the rooms by themselves half an hour later or a day later are given some instruction about what they should be doing. They paused the video. Now, while we do this in class activity and go do X. That’s just really powerful and makes it so that everybody’s considered as you’re going through this kind of multi time line experiment.

Jeanette: So can you know, the one thing that we have to keep in mind is with the San Francisco ended up before it was that, you know, those students were actively choosing to be in a HyFlex classroom where this fall most students are not given that opportunity, regardless if they’re going to die or if they’re going on to University of California or wherever they’ve chosen to attend school. They are going to be in a lot of cases, forced to how they get their education and how the teaching of learning happens. So knowing that, are there any other things that you think students should really be doing this summer to prepare for their courses in the fall, which, you know, we still don’t really know what’s going to happen, even if the school thinks that they’re going to be, you know, on ground. Things could still happen or maybe schools are going to be online, are going to be able to go back into the classroom.

Kevin: Yeah, I think students like teachers need to take the summer to prepare. And that may mean getting some of those skills that I brought up earlier, whether it’s time management skills, playing with calendar or reminder apps that will help them stay more focused in due dates, things like that, but also learning a little bit more about what the different formats their campus might choose so that they can be ready. And again, maybe creating a little network of students that they know already so that they can lean on those students, maybe not for advice about a specific course that they’re in, but for moral support for that sense of connection, which students say they’re missing quite a bit. And for encouragement, we all are a flock of geese flying in a V, and if you’re not familiar, the geese honk from the back to motivate the one in the front because they’re doing the most work. They are creating ability for the other ones to draft. Behind it, and so their way of thinking that lead bird is by honking encouragement. So we need encouragement, right? Yes. This bumps. Six feet apart.

Jeanette: Right, exactly. Now, that’s true. I’m always the slowest runner in a group, so I’m always cheering them on. Well, I hope we have a good weekend, Kevin. It’s nice.

Kevin: I hope you do, too.

Jeanette: And we will be, you know, of course, back talking more about how COVID and how it’s affecting education today. Maybe more pointers from from Dr. Kevin.

Kevin: I think we all have some great things to add. So it’s always good to talk to you and have a good weekend yourself.

Logo for MindWires COVID Transitions podcast

In this episode, Phil Hill, Jeanette Wiseman, and Kevin Kelly discuss multiple campus and system plans for Fall 2020, with many schools going public with reopening (hybrid) or staying online announcements over the past week.


  • Phil Hill
  • Jeanette Wiseman
  • Kevin Kelly


Phil: Welcome back to COVID Transitions. I’m Phil Hill and I’m here with Jeanette Wiseman and Kevin Kelly for another week of discussions about higher education and the changes we’re going through. This week, somewhat of a follow up to our discussion last week. Last week, we noted that now that Cal State University, with its four hundred and eighty thousand students, announced it was going to be mostly online for fall 2020. We were expecting to hear quite a few announcements coming forward, that you’d get a lot more, as Kevin was describing, if somebody is out on the dance floor now, other people can get out there. Indeed, we are starting to see quite a bit of news coming out. So we wanted to cover what’s happening with the news and what the changes are. It’s certainly been an exciting week from what I’ve seen, news wise, if you can call this type of information exciting.

Jeanette: Well, lordy, momma there’s not very much consistency. It doesn’t seem like, that’s for sure. With all that’s expense.

Phil: That’s part of the excitement. A lot of these you couldn’t have predicted or certainly I couldn’t have predicted the way they went. Let’s run through some of the news and just get your thoughts on what’s actually happening. So last week, we covered with California that there were some preliminary news about the University of California system, much more definitive news from Cal State system and then the California budget. Well, there are two things that have happened this week. First of all, the California community college system. Kevin, describe what you saw there and what do we know about why they’re actually making the decision they’re making?

Kevin: Well, I know originally the chancellor had said that it was still going to be up to the colleges in one of those Wednesday webinars that they hold to discuss COVID circumstances. They had basically set it up as such. But I think in the meantime, it’s been a little bit more guidance to have more virtual.

Phil: Yeah, I think we’ve seen a lot of the campuses already coming out saying that they were going to be virtual for fall 2020. Then the chancellor came out on Monday and essentially said he was endorsing the decision that most colleges were going to be virtual. That’s a way I had seen the news represented. I found it interesting that part of the rationale was simply finances. We’re community colleges, we recognize we probably can’t afford some of the mitigation requirements that we expect to see if we were going to try to open the in-person classes. Just the ability to afford plexiglass and social distancing and testing and all the changes seem to be a major factor there.

Jeanette: I also think, though, from a community college standpoint, strategically it makes sense. I think that not only California, but beyond being able, community college has two things going for it. It’s usually commuter plays. There’s not a lot of community colleges that have a big resident population.

It’s a place where it would be easy to go online. Then additionally and I think we saw some of the news reports this week that also talked about this that students aren’t sure what they’re going to do next year. Go to their local community college and take it online at such a cost savings from a typical university that from a strategic financial standpoint, not dismissing the fact that the mitigation around testing and all the things that you would have to do to have in-person classes on community college makes sense to have it online, because that’s where students can go and they can get a discount or  a deal, if you will. So I think across the country, I can see how that would be the strategy for any community college.

Kevin: Well, I think we’ve heard that community colleges expect to see higher enrollment as a result. But what is interesting to me, a family friend who is a freshman this year at a college out east said he was interested in possibly taking classes at a community college just because it would be a lower cost. But the challenge for him is at the school where he is, the classes for his major begin right away. So he would be losing the interactions with the professors and students who would be part of this professional network later on in life. So he’s battling between cost savings and missing out on opportunities, including internships and things like that.

Phil: There was an article that  captured some of these issues, at Inside Higher Ed, that essentially was pointing out that most of the community college systems that are coming out with announcements now that with the exception of Indiana or that’s the primary exception, that a lot of community colleges are planning on being virtual fall 2020 and likely follows the argument that you’re making Jeanette about that sector. It’s making sense, enrollment’s up, but this is a place a lot of people can go and there are structural reasons. It can make sense. But that  makes the Indiana Community College, which is known as Ivy Tech, somewhat of an interesting decision there. They seem to be the outlier among statewide community college systems on what their plan is because they want to go face to face.

Jeanette: So I don’t even know how to respond to Ivy Tech because I wonder what the thinking was on there. What I’m looking forward to having maybe better understanding, which we don’t know yet, is I really hope that a lot of the universities that are losing some of their enrollment to the community colleges because of all of this recognize this is a very different part of time and will be accepting of those transfer credits when the time comes. And I think that’s something that I wish I saw more collaboration between community colleges and universities, even within the state, to ensure that those transfer credits would happen. Just in a general sense is I think that’s the one fear is that, you’re going to start this, maybe you’re going to continue education, but with any community colleges also that fear as your credits aren’t going to transfer.

Kevin: Well, and the students themselves. This week, the student Senate for the California Community Colleges had a webinar about the results of the survey they put out. They had almost seventeen hundred students complete it from across the state of California and they were concerned about the fact that they’re having to drop classes because of either work circumstances, financial circumstances or academic situations where they just can’t focus on that many courses in an online format. They’re worried about transferability. They’re worried about impacting their time to graduation and moving on to four year campuses. One of the students was really cogent when she said community colleges are one of the last chances for social mobility. Yet we’re probably the worst off because of this COVID situation where we’re struggling to keep up. We’re struggling to stay motivated. One student said that she didn’t receive her Chromebook from her campus for four weeks after the campus reopened. So she had to borrow different laptops from different people each week so that she could continue to study. So it’s true that campuses and entire systems are making recommendations and choices. But now the work is going to have to start to make sure that students can be successful in those formats.

Phil: Now, if we look at the opposite side of the spectrum, at least for public systems and sticking with California, because that’s what we do in California, is talk about ourselves. The University of California system came out with an announcement I think surprised a lot of people. The Mercury News was describing Janet Napolitano, who’s the president of the system, said that every campus will be open and offering instruction this fall despite the coronavirus outbreak and certainly appreciated her endorsing our recent blog post and podcasts coverage that we’re seeing the hybridization of higher education. So I really appreciate her helping us out. But she particularly said the question will be how much of that instruction is in person versus how much is done remotely? Essentially, it’s a system wide hybrid approach that they’re announcing for the University of California. But where the minimum is there will be open campuses with face to face as as a strong component of it. That, to a lot of people, I think was surprising, particularly given that the other two public systems in California made not the opposite to selection, but they are going mostly virtual for the fall. Were you guys surprised?

Jeanette: I was surprised. I was really surprised.

Kevin: I was, too. And I think the bigger challenge is going to be the housing and all the different ramifications of saying we’re going to be face to face.

Jeanette: I mean, these are big campuses with lots of people. So that was what I’m just struggling with. As , we’ve seen some of the universities. I can’t remember which one. Maybe you guys can. There was one university that I know I read about that’s looking at just the dates that they’ll forgo the fall break and they’ll be ending before Thanksgiving.  there’s some shifts. Do you guys remember what university announced that?

Phil: Yeah. That was University of South Carolina came out with a plan. And University of Notre Dame also came out with a similar plan. What they both said is OK, we’re going to start early. We’re not going to do fall break and we’re going to try to wrap up anything face to face by Thanksgiving.

Jeanette: Who knows what’s going to happen in the fall. But at least there’s some kind of plan in place that would make me feel better as a parent or as a student. OK, this makes sense, this is what we’re going to do. So for me, just that the whole UC system, with the huge size of some of those campuses are just saying, yeah, we’re going to go online. While their sister, the Cal State system is saying no. , we’re going to go online, mostly not in person. Just seems, I don’t know.

No one’s coordinating. I guess it’s another thing for California as great as you guys think you are. It seems like the Cal State, UC system and the California community colleges are not coordinating anything which goes back to my whole thing, are any of these credits going to transfer? This is  a certain time period. Doesn’t seem like things are coordinated to me. That’s my personal opinion.

Phil: No. No, I agree with you. It is interesting that we’re not seeing a lot of coordination within the state so far. I don’t think I’ve seen much of that type of analysis on. OK, we’re going to do this while you guys do this and we’re going to boost up our transfer. I haven’t seen that type of coordination, but in terms of contingency planning, I want to go back to Notre Dame. They’re not just saying that. They’re essentially trying to plan around a potential or likely second peak of the virus in the fall. So they want to get things done by Thanksgiving, but at the same time, they’re not just saying, let’s go fully face to face and see what can happen.

They actually wrote that their faculty have been asked to prepare both courses in-person and through remote instruction. So their form of hybrid. Part of that is for students who are in quarantine and can’t come to campus, but also so that if they have to change their plans in the middle of the term and go online, they’re prepared, they already have the classes in place. One thing I have to say about them. They’re certainly not just making a choice and hoping that things work out. They seem to have some contingency planning built in as well. I think that’s an important factor, is not just making a decision so that students know whether there’s anything residential or not, but having contingencies in place for a second peak or the situation changing in the fall,

Jeanette: I mean from a consumer standpoint. Again, I know I keep going back to that, but it makes sense, as a parent, as a student, before you use the money to room and board, sign the rental agreement for your lease for that next semester. You want to have some understanding what you’re getting into. And I think what sometimes to me is lost. I mean, is how expensive a higher education degree is and the cost not only for the tuition and the books. But just the cost of getting a kid there, the rental, everything that goes into it. With right now, so many people in the world just strapped financially, it just seems like you need that information even if you’re at a private school.

Phil: Unfortunately, my youngest daughter’s at a private school where I think they’re taking the let’s hope and wait and see attitude, which, as you’re pointing out, that has implications, including finances, because I’m looking what they’re doing. They’re planning on opening up face to face. But in their communications, I don’t see any contingency planning. So it’s not just how do you get there, but are they going to end up having to disrupt themselves in the middle of the fall and have another crisis on their hands because they didn’t do something like Notre Dame is doing, which is saying we’re ready for both situations.

Jeanette: Right. Then you look at that and you’re comparing it. I mean, Phil, in your case, your daughter isn’t that far away from you. So that’s  I would say, something that you can be somewhat secure about. If you were sending a kid across the country and the choice is to either do that and invest in that money and the school’s not really communicating exactly what their plans are or, hey, maybe you need to either take a gap year or let’s just focus on the community college near the house and you can start school or you can continue your education.

I know I would do as a parent, especially if I was continuing, if the the online education that they got in the spring wasn’t at least reactive and in somewhat supportive of the students, which I think we were hearing a lot of. I think that there were people that you can recognize. Especially as being in educational technology, we can recognize, hey, this is a really special situation. What were they really trying to do to make sure that the students were supported and getting through the semester? If I didn’t feel that, I don’t know if I’d want to send my kid back to the school, at least for the next year. I would have a lot of reservations.

Kevin: Well I think, Jeanette, The point you’re making is a good one, because as campuses don’t make decisions or make them public, parents and students are going to make their own decisions. It may not include their institution where they were this spring. So, yeah, you’re right in that ambiguity is going to lead to decisions that are made independent of what the college ends up deciding to do.

Phil: Well, speaking of that, another great segue, if you look at schools, not just the sector of the school, but if you look at schools that are known for online education and that they seem to have a plan in place and they know how to offer this. Arizona State University is obviously one of the main ones that people always look to. It’s interesting, they’re getting a huge surge of students for the summer at the very least. Their enrollment at ASU is up more than 16 percent from last summer. Newly admitted students taking summer courses actually increased from 74 percent from last year. There’s  community colleges we’ve mentioned and in California, there’s been quite a bit of work with online education, but also the cap cost factor. It really surprised me just how much ASU has increased enrollment for the summer and they seem to be pulling students in during the summer. I don’t know if these are high school cross enrollment or if these are students saying, hey, I can’t get a job anyway in the summer, so I might as well start my college career early. What do you guys make of those huge increases?

Jeanette: I mean, what the first thing that comes to my head is those are some motivated kids or motivated students because right now I’m still I can’t wait till it’s time to get a drink tonight. So I am  just impressed by the motivation. I will say that I did hear from a friend of mine who’s a professor at the University of New Mexico that the UNM enrollment for fall is up by 17 percent.

Phil: Really?

Jeanette: Yeah. I forgot to tell you guys that, but, yeah, that’s quite a bit. I think that that’s probably just my guess is that people that aren’t going to be leaving, that were going to other probably out of state universities are planning on staying here. Maybe there’s in-state students that are deciding to go to UNM. But my guess is New Mexico residents plan on staying in Albuquerque.

Kevin: I think international students are going to be another group to watch because they may or may not feel like they can come over here for an uncertain situation. They may be seeking online courses to support continuing their studies at a specific place.

Phil: Yeah. That makes your a lot of sense.

Jeanette: I was going to say around the international students, I saw that statistically the the national average is, I think 10 percent. We’ve been working with the university, a private university, where that is way higher. I would say that maybe there’s 20 percent domestic students at that university. I’m curious what’s going to happen there? There’s definitely not going to be the students on campus. I don’t know if they have the online presence to to do what they need to do for those students.

Kevin: I was going to say what’s interesting is the higher education data sharing consortium, IGDS, had a survey with about 40 institutions and the highest ranking satisfaction with campus response were international students. They were surmising in their summary that it might be because they were taking extra efforts to make sure that those international students had somewhere to stay and something to eat while they were going through this situation. On the flip side, the people who were the least supported were non binary students of color and dramatically different response to the questions about how they felt about their institution, how well supported they felt. Again, we have to start looking at the divides that are being created on equity lines when we go through different crises like this.

Phil: One thing we need to maybe question as well is the actual surveys that are coming out. Here we are talking about enrollment is going to increase in the community colleges. Hey, it might even be stable or even increase in Cal. State. University of New Mexico, which is a research university, they’re seeing an increased enrollment projection for the fall. ASU is seeing dramatic increase during the summer. I get each one of those. You could make the argument while here’s why they’re different. At certain point, we need to question, are these surveys right. So many of these quick surveys that have come out predicting 10 to 30 percent enrollment decreases across the whole sector. We shouldn’t take that those are gospel. This might be like the IHME model out of University Washington for Coronavirus transmission. They’ve had to revise that model as they get new data. So I guess we do need to be careful of making the assumption that the surveys are right. Let’s just figure out where it’s going to head. The surveys could have a bad model built into them, or students can change their mind.

Kevin: Yeah, I don’t think we can trust anything until we actually get to the fall and see what people end up doing.

Phil: Yeah, it’s going to be interesting to see as we roll into the fall. Right now, I wouldn’t say that we can’t trust anything I would say. Everything we look at, you have to at least acknowledge the uncertainty of it, because even the enrollment estimates from individual schools, there are indicators, but we can’t treat them as definitive until we get into the fall. Jeanette and I were talking yesterday with somebody. They made the point saying, I think you did Jeanette saying, boy, be interesting to do the same survey in late September and see if students are still within these schools. There’s going to be a lot more demand on you better be giving us a real education in the fall time.

Jeanette: Right. I think those surveys, especially the student based surveys or any survey, I think one of the ways that I always want to find out is like, how were they collected? Is it come take my survey and here’s a link. I think right there you’re going to see people that have more time, that are more motivated. They’re going to click on that link which aren’t necessarily gathering a really good survey of who’s interested or who are the. audience for students. Kevin brought up the equity issue. Are they really looking to talk to those students that are working are financially strained or those people even clicking on those links? Are we getting that information from those students? I don’t know.

Kevin: That was a cognitive of the president of the students and into the California community colleges during that webinar, in his opening statement said, hey, we’re happy that sixteen hundred and ninety people filled out this survey. He said essential workers, people who are taking care of family at home, people who don’t have access to the Internet or devices, didn’t participate in this. So we do have to expect that the numbers that are reported may be even higher than what are represented in the data. So you’re absolutely right.

Phil: These cases, I think what would help them out? It’s good that people are providing surveys and getting the information out there. I think we would do well if they would describe their built in biases better. Kids know surveys going to be perfect, but I think it’d be better to say this survey has this built-In bias based on certain student groups not having the the ability or motivation to sign in, or call out that could be a bias. I wish they would just at least be more descriptive of the data that they’re collecting.

Jeanette: Yeah, definitely. That would be nice.

Kevin: Finally enough. I’m analyzing about eight different surveys right now for a blog post. I’ll go back and see if they have their protocols clearly defined. In some cases, it’s just results that are shown in an info graphic and you can’t get to the actual survey instrument or the raw data. In other cases, they have the protocol pretty much lined up. These are ranging from five hundred students to twenty five thousand students participating in these surveys, either at one institution or across the world.

Phil: I’m glad that people are putting these out. It just this is the area I think that could improve the most in the short term, as it described, not just dry academic issues, but make it clear that this is affecting public policy and media discussion. So make sure anything you report, you describe. Here’s the bias that we know about.

Jeanette: Well, I was I’m wondering how much the surveys really are affecting decisions because these decisions are all over the place. Going back to where we started, are they really looking at the surveys, the institutions, or are tech vendors really looking at this or are people just making at this point? Is it just really gut level decisions. What they think are going to happen?

Phil: Well, I did sit in on one president’s counsel that I think we mentioned earlier that was looking at planning and scenarios moving forward. And it was meant to inform what their decision is. They haven’t come public with what they’re going to do. They absolutely had been reading surveys and had noted some of these enrollment, projected enrollment declines as part of their thinking. It was only one piece of the puzzle. In my mind, I do think that the surveys have some influence on the decisions being made.

Jeanette: Well, then you just completely ruined my point.

Phil: I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to do that. Well, I don’t think that my was an anecdote. So you can treat it as the exception that proves your rule.

Jeanette: I have to say that it just doesn’t seem if we’re just taking California, which I know you guys want to focus on all the time, but if we’re just taking that, there’s surveys that are happening there and the decisions have not been consistent.

Phil: That is true. All right. So let’s take the one that might have surprised me the most. NYU, New York University and the heart of Manhattan, the epicenter of this, the pandemic within the U.S.. NYU is planning on opening in the fall in person. Now, obviously, as we’ve been saying, it’s really a hybrid decision. It’s not fully face to face, but to me, that has to be the most difficult environment to be able to open and have any kind of face to face presence for residents, for classes. You’re in the middle of New York. You’re a large university. That one. I’m not saying they’re wrong, certainly. It did surprise me when I saw that news came out about NYU’s reopening plans.

Jeanette: Yeah. , the thing about NYU is that just it’s an urban campus. It’s fairly spread out not only within a couple of city blocks, but they have parts of their campus and Brooklyn. Parts of it is in the city. So controlling that even seems really difficult.

Phil: While the big decentralized nature, though, might actually be somewhat of their strength, and you’re not just making a centralized decision, but each individual school out there can based on where they’re physically located and the types of courses they’re doing that because they’re decentralized in that nature, that they could have different approaches to manage it.

Kevin: That’s going to make it really hard for the students. They’re going off to take transportation from one place or not have classes on campus at another place. It’s almost like UCLA when they used to have 30 different versions of Moodle. It’s putting the burden on the students again.

Phil: Well, don’t forget, UCLA, what you’re also had 30 different Wi-Fi systems which helped out with the Moodle situation.

Jeanette: I don’t know. So for NYU, I just think that they they must have really thought that through to make that announcement. We just don’t know what that thinking process was because they seemed like they are aware of the constraints that they have and issues they have. It makes me think of something else. I remember reading at the very beginning of the pandemic, the schools closing down is that there were some parents that were complaining that they were in Manhattan and their college students were in different locations and probably New England or wherever, these nice little towns. When the school shut down on a campuses shut down, the students had to actually go back to a more dangerous location. They were upset about that this the schools made these decisions to shut down, but sending their students back wasn’t safer necessarily.

I’m wondering if there are any places where people are thinking, hey, no, you’re going you’re going on campus. They better have in-person classes because we want you there. We think it’s going to be safer if there is another outbreak. Just throwing that thought out there.

Kevin: I think it could be money, because if you look at Texas A&M decision, they were saying in the article that the system would’ve lost about one hundred and sixteen million dollars through August thirty first without federal aid. I think campuses are also thinking about the money aspect of it.

Phil: Yeah, no, they absolutely have to think about the economics,

Jeanette: All those places it just built brand new dorms that are required. Does they have to be thinking like, okay, are we just going to be just losing money on this brand new dorm everyone’s required to stay in.

Phil: I want to go back to. Well, you because you asked you brought up the point about they had to have thought this through and this gets to what we’ve been writing about. It’s the biggest trend or the biggest theme that I think it’s important for people to understand that when any of these campuses are opening with some  face to face, they’re doing it in a hybrid nature almost always. So in NYU, they described the testing that they’re doing. But besides that, they explicitly are saying, like Notre Dame, the university will give students the option to attend classes remotely and is designing ways for students to spread their classes over two to three semesters without additional tuition cost. They’re also developing a go local option, which will let students study at one of the international NYU sites. So have a location to go to, even if it’s not in the New York set of campuses. There’s this hybrid approach. A lot of it is student based and a lot of these cases. I think, Kevin, we need to come up with Nomen cloture like hy-flex, but to relate to students overall. So not just within a course context, but overall where students get to choose the face to face versus online in the mix that’s in there, because that’s the most I think it’s one of the big trends that we’re starting to see is a lot of schools saying, OK, students are going to have to choose. It could be for the entire college experience, not just within courses.

Kevin: That whole local thing that you brought up, a colleague at UC Berkeley, brought up the same concept where campuses may start having satellite centers in different parts of the country or the world so that students can go to a closer location. The way Jeanette was talking about New Mexico residents possibly going to UNM instead of another school because it’s closer to home and they have that safety net of being closer by if things shut down.

Phil: There’s some very interesting trends that we’re seeing. The biggest thing that’s caught me over the past week is that the floodgates are opening up. It seems like Cal State was the most significant announcement that happened. I’m not saying everything’s because of Cal State, but it helped accelerate the trend of colleges need to announce what their plans are for fall 2020. There was a survey mentioned at Inside Higher Ed where students are saying they want schools to make a choice so that they know how to do their planning. There’s a lot of pressure on these schools to make a choice soon. And essentially, it’s coming down to all virtual or hybrid. Those are the two things that schools are looking at. There are very few, if any, saying, oh, we’re fully going back to the way we were in fall 2019. I’m sure some will, but that is not the majority of the cases. The majority of, quote unquote, reopening is happening with a hybrid approach. That’s just a common theme I think we’re going to see a lot more of.

We’ll just have to see. I think all of us need to take a break in the U.S. and enjoy Memorial Day weekend. And wherever you are, enjoy the weekend. I think next week will likely be another set of interesting news that we want to look at and also be looking forward for Kevin’s post about the student surveys, because there’s a lot of information coming out, out that way. That will be interesting to digest. Thanks for your time and Kevin and Janette. Great talking to you guys.

Kevin: Jeanette, go get that drink.